Giorno Giovanna vs Z

Battle takes place at Kami's Lookout. In character, no knowledge of the other, fighters start 20 meters apart, victory via incapacitation by any means. GioGio has Gold Experience Requiem of course.

By feats, Z has not shown nearly as much to get past GER.

Z gets shanked by space hobos.

GER would prevent LHWs from converting it into harmless energy.

Z wins. Z broke through a shield created by a multiversal goddess with only 2 LHW's. 2 LHW's also means that it would take the destruction of the universe to beat you. GER is basically 2 LHW's. Z has 5 so Z wins.

GeneralVan wrote:Z wins. Z broke through a shield created by a multiversal goddess with only 2 LHW's. 2 LHW's also means that it would take the destruction of the universe to beat you. GER is basically 2 LHW's. Z has 5 so Z wins.

Was about to say, Dream told me something similar with how 5 wings means being a Low-Multiversal.

ChaosKnight75 wrote:

GeneralVan wrote:Z wins. Z broke through a shield created by a multiversal goddess with only 2 LHW's. 2 LHW's also means that it would take the destruction of the universe to beat you. GER is basically 2 LHW's. Z has 5 so Z wins.

Was about to say, Dream told me something similar with how 5 wings means being a Low-Multiversal.

Yup. Also Zinv from Dual! Parallel Trouble Adventure merged 2 universes with only 2 wings and Z even said that they are the universe's manifestations of energy from a higher plane of existence. Z also said that there was no way Tokimi was going to kill him unless she destroyed the universe, and this was when he only had 2 wings. So yeah, 5 LHW's is low-multiversal. Also, a little off-topic, but Z is one of the coolest looking villains I've ever seen. His eye, clothes, and the appearance of his wings look awesome.

GeneralVan wrote:

ChaosKnight75 wrote:

GeneralVan wrote:Z wins. Z broke through a shield created by a multiversal goddess with only 2 LHW's. 2 LHW's also means that it would take the destruction of the universe to beat you. GER is basically 2 LHW's. Z has 5 so Z wins.

Was about to say, Dream told me something similar with how 5 wings means being a Low-Multiversal.

Yup. Also Zinv from Dual! Parallel Trouble Adventure merged 2 universes with only 2 wings and Z even said that they are the universe's manifestations of energy from a higher plane of existence. Z also said that there was no way Tokimi was going to kill him unless she destroyed the universe, and this was when he only had 2 wings. So yeah, 5 LHW's is low-multiversal. Also, a little off-topic, but Z is one of the coolest looking villains I've ever seen. His eye, clothes, and the appearance of his wings look awesome.

Glad to know another person has seen Dual! Parallel Trouble Adventure it is a good spinoff, I also recommend Tenchi Muyo GXP and Isekai no Seikishi Monogatari. Out of those 3 spinoff series Isekai is the weakest when it comes to power but is still a good series.

Thing here is this thread was done several times before with GER resulting as the victor.
Saying he's multiversal does not help a case against something that works outside of time and space and controls death itself and casualty.
Not to mention this match can be ended with a simple Giorno makes a bird and Z attempts to cut it and the force is redirected back at him.
Again for what Gio really is scale wise? He doesn't have a scale.

Not to mention that Z has will and actions.
So yeah he needs to take action which GER would reset.
So yeah not to mention auto defense and being completely sentient from its user.

Gio Gio wrote:Not to mention that Z has will and actions.
So yeah he needs to take action which GER would reset.
So yeah not to mention auto defense and being completely sentient from its user.

All those apply to Lighthawk wings. Last one literally describes it. Doesn't really help that GER has never fought someone with a way to resist it's effect so saying it works on anybody with will is a NLF. It comes down to whose power is a greater scope. We really shouldn't use other threads as an argument. I've found plenty that think Z would win.

Yeah and how many of those people who thought Z would win actually read Jojo?
Thing is has LHW resisted any type of casualty manipulation or time and space erasure.
And if we are talking what is stated then i'd be more than happy to post the stand page since its right there.
All stats are described as none meaning either GER is infinite in all of those aspects or GER is above those concepts.
And its not NLF to assume that LHW would work on something like GER?
Hardly seems fair. Like EVA and myself have said GER isn't scaled its unknown in what it can do.
And the whole Universal argument has been debunked time and time again.
And i'd just like to see LHW resisting GER honestly.

Or something on its scale.
Regardless of what the LHW are they aren't sentient from the user and still require a will and action so that must be considered my friend.

Gio Gio wrote:Yeah and how many of those people who thought Z would win actually read Jojo?
Thing is has LHW resisted any type of casualty manipulation or time and space erasure.
And if we are talking what is stated then i'd be more than happy to post the stand page since its right there.
All stats are described as none meaning either GER is infinite in all of those aspects or GER is above those concepts.
And its not NLF to assume that LHW would work on something like GER?
Hardly seems fair. Like EVA and myself have said GER isn't scaled its unknown in what it can do.
And the whole Universal argument has been debunked time and time again.
And i'd just like to see LHW resisting GER honestly.

I can say the same for those threads too. And no, most people that get involved in debates tend to know the subject. LHWs can negate space and time-based reality warping on a Universal scale with just 2 Winga so by no means is GioGio just winning because of all the vague assumptions. The Chousin transcend casuality and are hyper-dimensional, virtually omnipotent beings that Z can at least somewhat resist. Don't buy his stats, Nevermind that assuming NONE=Infinite making next to no sense. Burning Down the House has identical stats to GER. Clearly must be Godly too. If only GioGio isn't currently a presumed victim to Stairway to Heaven.

LHW are automatic defenses that negate the opposition before it even affects the user to begin with. Lastly, what also gets me is the description. GER did negate the effect of causes alright, stopping all of Diavolo's actions so they never happened and making his death 0 so that he never died in each scenario only to repeat another, but Diavolo sure didn't seem to have his Will power set to 0 since he was determined to win until the end.

No his willpower was negated he could not move nor did his actions take effect.
And alright then so don't claim LHW can win against GER if you are also to claim that GER is so vague like I said threads with GER shouldn't be made then since GER being universal is sheer nonsense. And I understand what LHW are capable of .And comparing BDTH and GER that's a pretty bad comparison tbh.
BDTH actually has a description and what it does is pretty self explanatory.
GER has a description and one single feat so it is vague and something that can't be scaled in Jojo stands have infinite but NONE what is NONE? We don't know what NONE is.
And Gio Gio didn't appear in Part 6 because Araki knew he was too powerful he'd just one shot Pucci hence why he was only mentioned.
And GER does exactly that negates the opponent before they even can effect or do anything Diavolo thought he was moving but that was not the case.

And GER controls both the cause and effect my brother.
Like you said its vague so why use it in battles then.
IMO GER is entirely limitless if we go based on stats again I ask what is "NONE"
It obviously doesn't have destructive power speed or anything like that.

Nullification of Cause and Effect: Gold Experience Requiem's ability is to turn anything, including his opponent's attack and willpower, back to the state of "zero". Hence, it is near invincible, as all "supposed" actions created by an opponent would have been reset (back to point zero). It is mentioned by Giorno himself that he is unsure of the exact workings and limits of Requiem's powers, but it has been shown that its range of influence extends from finger beams, surface contact, and to even being in the mere attention of Requiem.

Requiem's abilities is seen by some fans to be opposite King Crimson's: King Crimson erases the "cause" and keeps the "effect" (i.e time where a bullet would hit him is erased, causing the bullet to warp past him), while Requiem keeps the "cause" but erases the "effect", causing endless scenarios where actions and initiatives are started, but the effects of such does not occur (as shown when Requiem completely halted King Crimson's cause erasing ability).

If the opponent is "killed" by the stand itself, then they will also continuously experience death, as they will die but repeatedly return to point "zero" (i.e Diavolo's endless death loops).

This ability renders Giorno essentially untouchable by anything that would try to hurt him and is perhaps the strongest defense in the series.

Original Abilities: It is often disputed whether Giorno retained his original life giving abilities after evolving into Gold Experience Requiem. After fusing with the arrow, Giorno breaks a column and a piece of it turns into a scorpion that then attacks Diavolo, so it is very likely he still has all of his original stand's abilities.

Gio Gio wrote:Nullification of Cause and Effect: Gold Experience Requiem's ability is to turn anything, including his opponent's attack and willpower, back to the state of "zero". Hence, it is near invincible, as all "supposed" actions created by an opponent would have been reset (back to point zero). It is mentioned by Giorno himself that he is unsure of the exact workings and limits of Requiem's powers, but it has been shown that its range of influence extends from finger beams, surface contact, and to even being in the mere attention of Requiem.

Requiem's abilities is seen by some fans to be opposite King Crimson's: King Crimson erases the "cause" and keeps the "effect" (i.e time where a bullet would hit him is erased, causing the bullet to warp past him), while Requiem keeps the "cause" but erases the "effect", causing endless scenarios where actions and initiatives are started, but the effects of such does not occur (as shown when Requiem completely halted King Crimson's cause erasing ability).

If the opponent is "killed" by the stand itself, then they will also continuously experience death, as they will die but repeatedly return to point "zero" (i.e Diavolo's endless death loops).

This ability renders Giorno essentially untouchable by anything that would try to hurt him and is perhaps the strongest defense in the series.

Original Abilities: It is often disputed whether Giorno retained his original life giving abilities after evolving into Gold Experience Requiem. After fusing with the arrow, Giorno breaks a column and a piece of it turns into a scorpion that then attacks Diavolo, so it is very likely he still has all of his original stand's abilities.

Well aware of what GER does. It negates the effects of causes so that they never happen. (ex. Diavolo throwing blood in Gio's face. The effect of Gio's face being covered in blood was nullified so it never happened. GER itself isn't vague, it's exactly what I said it does and was shown. What I said are vague statements are half the things fans assume it can do.

What were Diavolo's last words before getting "Muda'd!" into oblivion? I believe something like "I'll win this. My prediction will happen!" (prediction in question being King Crimson tearing GioGio apart). He had his will power alright, it just didn't mean a thing since the result of all his actions would become 0, which I agree GER does accomplish.

Claiming he's at best Universal isn't that far out there considering he died to one as it stands for 2 reasons.
1) He didn't stop Stairway to Heaven. Considering how his story ends with how much he has to live for as the boss of Passione, I can't think of a reason for why GioGio wouldn't stop it assuming he could.

2) We don't even know if he survived since there's no confirmation. So it's pretty safe to come to the GioGio shared the same fates as everyone else when Araki literally retconned his own series.

Doesn't matter why he didn't appear in Part 6 when we all know Araki has a new Jojo as a main character for each Part and selectively chooses whether or not he wants to have past Jojo's appear or not. Even if that was the case, it's a flaw in Araki's writing given whats happened, thus it stands GER can't stop outright Universe-scale or ending reality warping.

Stats don't mean much especially when were assuming NONE=Infinite. By all means, guess Burning Down the House is Godly as well.

Again Burning down the House isn't comparable to GER so I don't know why that keeps getting used.
And he does have new Jojo's you're right. And how are you under the impression that he died?
If its not written that he died then he didn't die. And if you remember STH does not kill people you do not die you come back as someone else. But again you just said there is no confirmation so you don't know if he died or not.
And it is far out since such a thing wasn't stated by Araki himself the only universal thing is Pucci's STH correct?
And it is a flaw and nothing you stated can tell if GER is universal or not.
You just stated that Gio didn't appear and assumed he had the same fate as everyone else how do you know then?
As iv'e said I agree to disagree you'd believe that GER is at best universal i'd say he cannot be scaled.

Gio Gio wrote:Again Burning down the House isn't comparable to GER so I don't know why that keeps getting used.
And he does have new Jojo's you're right. And how are you under the impression that he died?
If its not written that he died then he didn't die. And if you remember STH does not kill people you do not die you come back as someone else. But again you just said there is no confirmation so you don't know if he died or not.  
And it is far out since such a thing wasn't stated by Araki himself the only universal thing is Pucci's STH correct?
And it is a flaw and nothing you stated can tell if GER is universal or not.
You just stated that Gio didn't appear and assumed he had the same fate as everyone else how do you know then?
As iv'e said I agree to disagree you'd believe that GER is at best universal i'd say he cannot be scaled.

How can I assume he survived the Universe's end just because we never actually see him get caught in it?  

We didn't see Joseph or Josuke at all in Part 6. Can I assume they survived Stairway to Heaven too just because we never see him? Can we assume everyone not actually seen dying from the universe ending in Part 6 survived even though that basically denies that Araki literally retconned his entire verse? Nothing implies Gio survived nor has the author said so, that's why you pretty much assume he got retconned along with everyone else.

Stairway to Heaven does kill you. You eventually crumble to dust at some point from time accelerating, you just get remade along with the universe afterwards.

Anyway yeah, agree to disagree.

I'll gladly reconsider once the author says otherwise or we even see GioGio alive and well, though that would make you still wonder why he didn't stop the Universal reset. Between that and his best feat being stopping a Universal-scale time erasure, GER is Universal at best in scope.

I disagree with it being universal in scope because KC was never described to be something universal but again I digress friend.
And Gio more than likely won't be brought back or if he was then he'd be a different person and who knows maybe he didn't stop it as a whole perhaps GER just wanted to save Gio you know?
And I dunno can't agree with the retcon but again agree to disagree brother.

Gio Gio wrote:I disagree with it being universal in scope because KC was never described to be something universal but again I digress friend.
And Gio more than likely won't be brought back or if he was then he'd be a different person and who knows maybe he didn't stop it as a whole perhaps GER just wanted to save Gio you know?
And I dunno can't agree with the retcon but again agree to disagree brother.

The whole Universal scope thing comes from some interview with Araki saying Dio's The World timestop reaches to all of space. From there, people just assume it applies to similar time-based Stands. Pucci with one of the strongest Stands in the series reinforces the claim too since it affects time on an explicitly universal scale too. I just go with it since King Crimson is just a The World expy and Diavolo a poor man's Dio.

XDD True True.
But I dunno the interview imo doesn't speak for all time based stands since the guy only asked for Dio's range. And Araki only said "All the way into space" which I wonder if he knows what a multiverse even is. You know?

Do Z's LHWs give him immunity to Probability and Causality manipulation? If not then he loses, no contest.
I've said this once before and I'll say it again. I am convinced by it, but if anyone disagrees due to lack of info on GER's situation after the universal reset then I understand where they're coming from but would agree to disagree.
The scale of GER's abilities doesn't matter, here's why:

To Gold Experience Requiem range should be completely irrelevant. As you know, it can act within erased time as it negated Diavolo's attacks in erased time and put him in a death loop through causality manipulation. However, GER doesn't simply transcend time, it also transcends space because time and space are two sides of the same coin, you can't have time without having space and vice versa, there's a reason why they're called space-time instead of time AND space. So when Diavolo erases time, he also erases space, and so that means GER acted in both of the absence of time and space, or should I say, space-time. And so when you transcend space-time you transcend 4 dimensions, making distance and duration completely irrelevant. And that also means that GER is effectively a hyper-dimensional entity, at least 5-dimensional.

But then comes the next part, GER doesn't simply control causality, it also controls probability as these two are also two sides of the same coin and you can't have one without the other, look up probabilistic causation; these two concepts exist across all of existence because they are fundamental pivotal concepts, so that also means that GER's powers aren't "multiversal", they are way beyond that, they apply to all of creation, further cemented by GER transcending space-time.

This above.
I was trying to explain this.