Novel Kars vs Elder God Demonbane

Title says it all.
Personally I say stalemate but hey i'd love to hear what you all think.
Location:Neutral realm.
Who takes this?~

Or him and EGD protect humanity together.
Either or

LOL!

All NK needs to do is manifest a character out of his imagination using Bohemian Rhapsody with the specific power to "Defeat Elder God DemonBane".

Bohemian Rhapsody can manifest ANY sort of fiction, it doesn't have to be something pre-existing, like when Annasui and Weather made Van Gogh draw a character for them and they imposed their imagination on reality, a hero with the specific ability to "Eliminate all other Fantasy Heroes".

Man I don't even want to think what Bohemian Rhapsody Requiem could do, it might have a completely unrelated ability but it has to be much more powerful.

^ This really feels like NLF, especially since Novel Kars lacks feats and seeing scans of Bohemian Rhapsody is making me consider if it's really all that. The character "who can beat any fictional character" was actually made to defeat the things specifically summoned by the Stand, many of which aren't anywhere near powerful enough to really consider the character strong (doesn't help that their made of the same material as where they came from) and the Stand simply hasn't shown feats to summon characters anywhere at Elder God Demonbane with all their abilities too. That and Demonbane has a few NLFs himself. I can just say he brings out a copy of himself that will defeat Novel Kars in battle. As for the fight, won't say since Novel Kars again, lacks feats to really tell where he's at in power.

ChaosKnight75 wrote:^ This really feels like NLF, especially since Novel Kars lacks feats and seeing scans of Bohemian Rhapsody is making me consider if it's really all that. The character "who can beat any fictional character" was actually made to defeat the things specifically summoned by the Stand, many of which aren't anywhere near powerful enough to really consider the character strong (doesn't help that their made of the same material as where they came from) and the Stand simply hasn't shown feats to summon characters anywhere at Elder God Demonbane with all their abilities too. That and Demonbane has a few NLFs himself. I can just say he brings out a copy of himself that will defeat Novel Kars in battle. As for the fight, won't say since Novel Kars again, lacks feats to really tell where he's at in power.

It's true, that Hero they summoned didn't defeat powerful characters.

But think of the possibilities, the potential of what this thing could do. Manifestation of fictional things? Come on, how can you not see how broken this is, does EVERYTHING need feats to figure out what it could do? Sure it does most of the time, but there are times when the potential and scale of an ability is apparent from the get go.
Do you see anyone here that disagrees with GER being able to beat STTGL? No, you don't, and that's because the scale and potential of its power is obvious despite having only a few pages worth of feats. Not everything is NLF just because it hasn't been used on stronger characters, if that's the case why do we even bother arguing for JJBA characters against characters from verses such as DBZ or whatnot?

And that's where you and I are not carbon copies of each other like most of the time (lol), to me, there are things I don't need feats for when I realize the scale and potential.

And that's why I think if, and only if, NK could imagine a character capable of defeating EGD and brings it into life he could win.
NK only has a few feats sure, but remember the kind of stands in his repertoire and remember that he reached heaven. THAT, my friend, is what I call potential.

EVA_01 wrote:

ChaosKnight75 wrote:^ This really feels like NLF, especially since Novel Kars lacks feats and seeing scans of Bohemian Rhapsody is making me consider if it's really all that. The character "who can beat any fictional character" was actually made to defeat the things specifically summoned by the Stand, many of which aren't anywhere near powerful enough to really consider the character strong (doesn't help that their made of the same material as where they came from) and the Stand simply hasn't shown feats to summon characters anywhere at Elder God Demonbane with all their abilities too. That and Demonbane has a few NLFs himself. I can just say he brings out a copy of himself that will defeat Novel Kars in battle. As for the fight, won't say since Novel Kars again, lacks feats to really tell where he's at in power.

It's true, that Hero they summoned didn't defeat powerful characters.

But think of the possibilities, the potential of what this thing could do. Manifestation of fictional things? Come on, how can you not see how broken this is, does EVERYTHING need feats to figure out what it could do? Sure it does most of the time, but there are times when the potential and scale of an ability is apparent from the get go.
Do you see anyone here that disagrees with GER being able to beat STTGL? No, you don't, and that's because the scale and potential of its power is obvious despite having only a few pages worth of feats. Not everything is NLF just because it hasn't been used on stronger characters, if that's the case why do we even bother arguing for JJBA characters against characters from verses such as DBZ or whatnot?

And that's where you and I are not carbon copies of each other like most of the time (lol), to me, there are things I don't need feats for when I realize the scale and potential.

And that's why I think if, and only if, NK could imagine a character capable of defeating EGD and brings it into life he could win.
NK only has a few feats sure, but remember the kind of stands in his repertoire and remember that he reached heaven. THAT, my friend, is what I call potential.

my call on GER as I've said plenty of times and by extension, Stairway To Heaven AKA "the strongest Stand" barring maybe Requiem versions and portrayed as the be-all, end-all Stand in the same arc Bohemian Rhapsody debuted in should sum up my opinion.

ChaosKnight75 wrote:

EVA_01 wrote:

ChaosKnight75 wrote:^ This really feels like NLF, especially since Novel Kars lacks feats and seeing scans of Bohemian Rhapsody is making me consider if it's really all that. The character "who can beat any fictional character" was actually made to defeat the things specifically summoned by the Stand, many of which aren't anywhere near powerful enough to really consider the character strong (doesn't help that their made of the same material as where they came from) and the Stand simply hasn't shown feats to summon characters anywhere at Elder God Demonbane with all their abilities too. That and Demonbane has a few NLFs himself. I can just say he brings out a copy of himself that will defeat Novel Kars in battle. As for the fight, won't say since Novel Kars again, lacks feats to really tell where he's at in power.

It's true, that Hero they summoned didn't defeat powerful characters.

But think of the possibilities, the potential of what this thing could do. Manifestation of fictional things? Come on, how can you not see how broken this is, does EVERYTHING need feats to figure out what it could do? Sure it does most of the time, but there are times when the potential and scale of an ability is apparent from the get go.
Do you see anyone here that disagrees with GER being able to beat STTGL? No, you don't, and that's because the scale and potential of its power is obvious despite having only a few pages worth of feats. Not everything is NLF just because it hasn't been used on stronger characters, if that's the case why do we even bother arguing for JJBA characters against characters from verses such as DBZ or whatnot?

And that's where you and I are not carbon copies of each other like most of the time (lol), to me, there are things I don't need feats for when I realize the scale and potential.

And that's why I think if, and only if, NK could imagine a character capable of defeating EGD and brings it into life he could win.
NK only has a few feats sure, but remember the kind of stands in his repertoire and remember that he reached heaven. THAT, my friend, is what I call potential.

my call on GER as I've said plenty of times and by extension, Stairway To Heaven AKA "the strongest Stand" barring maybe Requiem versions and portrayed as the be-all, end-all Stand in the same arc Bohemian Rhapsody debuted in should sum up my opinion.

I know where you're coming from and I get it, not the first time we talked about this but I wanted to explain my case to whoever is viewing this thread.

EVA_01 wrote:

ChaosKnight75 wrote:

EVA_01 wrote:

ChaosKnight75 wrote:^ This really feels like NLF, especially since Novel Kars lacks feats and seeing scans of Bohemian Rhapsody is making me consider if it's really all that. The character "who can beat any fictional character" was actually made to defeat the things specifically summoned by the Stand, many of which aren't anywhere near powerful enough to really consider the character strong (doesn't help that their made of the same material as where they came from) and the Stand simply hasn't shown feats to summon characters anywhere at Elder God Demonbane with all their abilities too. That and Demonbane has a few NLFs himself. I can just say he brings out a copy of himself that will defeat Novel Kars in battle. As for the fight, won't say since Novel Kars again, lacks feats to really tell where he's at in power.

It's true, that Hero they summoned didn't defeat powerful characters.

But think of the possibilities, the potential of what this thing could do. Manifestation of fictional things? Come on, how can you not see how broken this is, does EVERYTHING need feats to figure out what it could do? Sure it does most of the time, but there are times when the potential and scale of an ability is apparent from the get go.
Do you see anyone here that disagrees with GER being able to beat STTGL? No, you don't, and that's because the scale and potential of its power is obvious despite having only a few pages worth of feats. Not everything is NLF just because it hasn't been used on stronger characters, if that's the case why do we even bother arguing for JJBA characters against characters from verses such as DBZ or whatnot?

And that's where you and I are not carbon copies of each other like most of the time (lol), to me, there are things I don't need feats for when I realize the scale and potential.

And that's why I think if, and only if, NK could imagine a character capable of defeating EGD and brings it into life he could win.
NK only has a few feats sure, but remember the kind of stands in his repertoire and remember that he reached heaven. THAT, my friend, is what I call potential.

my call on GER as I've said plenty of times and by extension, Stairway To Heaven AKA "the strongest Stand" barring maybe Requiem versions and portrayed as the be-all, end-all Stand in the same arc Bohemian Rhapsody debuted in should sum up my opinion.

I know where you're coming from and I get it, not the first time we talked about this but I wanted to explain my case to whoever is viewing this thread.

I get you it's just there's something that needs to be said for why this mentality with Bohemian Rhapsody isn't a good one. If were going by this route with Bohemian Rhapsody, then what can we take for other guys like Yhwach with the same implied potential? Are we going to assume he LOLnopes any power once he declares it unable to defeat him and takes it as his own even when he lacks the feats to be that strong? I'm not even like this with Index characters. I go by a combination of statement and abilities with feats and scaling to give a measure, otherwise you got Fiamma one-shotting fiction and Othinus being Omnipotent. Already gouged Fiamma pretty good and I've been lenient on who can beat Othinus once I'm convinced.

ChaosKnight75 wrote:

EVA_01 wrote:

ChaosKnight75 wrote:

EVA_01 wrote:

ChaosKnight75 wrote:^ This really feels like NLF, especially since Novel Kars lacks feats and seeing scans of Bohemian Rhapsody is making me consider if it's really all that. The character "who can beat any fictional character" was actually made to defeat the things specifically summoned by the Stand, many of which aren't anywhere near powerful enough to really consider the character strong (doesn't help that their made of the same material as where they came from) and the Stand simply hasn't shown feats to summon characters anywhere at Elder God Demonbane with all their abilities too. That and Demonbane has a few NLFs himself. I can just say he brings out a copy of himself that will defeat Novel Kars in battle. As for the fight, won't say since Novel Kars again, lacks feats to really tell where he's at in power.

It's true, that Hero they summoned didn't defeat powerful characters.

But think of the possibilities, the potential of what this thing could do. Manifestation of fictional things? Come on, how can you not see how broken this is, does EVERYTHING need feats to figure out what it could do? Sure it does most of the time, but there are times when the potential and scale of an ability is apparent from the get go.
Do you see anyone here that disagrees with GER being able to beat STTGL? No, you don't, and that's because the scale and potential of its power is obvious despite having only a few pages worth of feats. Not everything is NLF just because it hasn't been used on stronger characters, if that's the case why do we even bother arguing for JJBA characters against characters from verses such as DBZ or whatnot?

And that's where you and I are not carbon copies of each other like most of the time (lol), to me, there are things I don't need feats for when I realize the scale and potential.

And that's why I think if, and only if, NK could imagine a character capable of defeating EGD and brings it into life he could win.
NK only has a few feats sure, but remember the kind of stands in his repertoire and remember that he reached heaven. THAT, my friend, is what I call potential.

my call on GER as I've said plenty of times and by extension, Stairway To Heaven AKA "the strongest Stand" barring maybe Requiem versions and portrayed as the be-all, end-all Stand in the same arc Bohemian Rhapsody debuted in should sum up my opinion.

I know where you're coming from and I get it, not the first time we talked about this but I wanted to explain my case to whoever is viewing this thread.

I get you it's just there's something that needs to be said for why this mentality with Bohemian Rhapsody isn't a good one. If were going by this route with Bohemian Rhapsody, then what can we take for other guys like Yhwach with the same implied potential? Are we going to assume he LOLnopes any power once he declares it unable to defeat him and takes it as his own even when he lacks the feats to be that strong? I'm not even like this with Index characters. I go by a combination of statement and abilities with feats and scaling to give a measure, otherwise you got Fiamma one-shotting fiction and Othinus being Omnipotent. Already gouged Fiamma pretty good and I've been lenient on who can beat Othinus once I'm convinced.

But those characters you mentioned have shown limits. And I'm not saying "Oh BR showed no limits therefore blah blah" do not get me wrong, even if those characters haven't shown limits there are ways to put limits on them through logic and what their power scale could extend to, ect.

Here's my question that will seal this deal, if you manage to answer it convincingly, I shall bow down at your feet and change my view on NK entirely:

For a guy who could literally manifest his own imagination (And other fictional works but were not getting into that), besides his own imagination, what other limits are there? (Disregarding NK's own innate abilities)

EVA_01 wrote:

ChaosKnight75 wrote:

EVA_01 wrote:

ChaosKnight75 wrote:

EVA_01 wrote:

ChaosKnight75 wrote:^ This really feels like NLF, especially since Novel Kars lacks feats and seeing scans of Bohemian Rhapsody is making me consider if it's really all that. The character "who can beat any fictional character" was actually made to defeat the things specifically summoned by the Stand, many of which aren't anywhere near powerful enough to really consider the character strong (doesn't help that their made of the same material as where they came from) and the Stand simply hasn't shown feats to summon characters anywhere at Elder God Demonbane with all their abilities too. That and Demonbane has a few NLFs himself. I can just say he brings out a copy of himself that will defeat Novel Kars in battle. As for the fight, won't say since Novel Kars again, lacks feats to really tell where he's at in power.

It's true, that Hero they summoned didn't defeat powerful characters.

But think of the possibilities, the potential of what this thing could do. Manifestation of fictional things? Come on, how can you not see how broken this is, does EVERYTHING need feats to figure out what it could do? Sure it does most of the time, but there are times when the potential and scale of an ability is apparent from the get go.
Do you see anyone here that disagrees with GER being able to beat STTGL? No, you don't, and that's because the scale and potential of its power is obvious despite having only a few pages worth of feats. Not everything is NLF just because it hasn't been used on stronger characters, if that's the case why do we even bother arguing for JJBA characters against characters from verses such as DBZ or whatnot?

And that's where you and I are not carbon copies of each other like most of the time (lol), to me, there are things I don't need feats for when I realize the scale and potential.

And that's why I think if, and only if, NK could imagine a character capable of defeating EGD and brings it into life he could win.
NK only has a few feats sure, but remember the kind of stands in his repertoire and remember that he reached heaven. THAT, my friend, is what I call potential.

my call on GER as I've said plenty of times and by extension, Stairway To Heaven AKA "the strongest Stand" barring maybe Requiem versions and portrayed as the be-all, end-all Stand in the same arc Bohemian Rhapsody debuted in should sum up my opinion.

I know where you're coming from and I get it, not the first time we talked about this but I wanted to explain my case to whoever is viewing this thread.

I get you it's just there's something that needs to be said for why this mentality with Bohemian Rhapsody isn't a good one. If were going by this route with Bohemian Rhapsody, then what can we take for other guys like Yhwach with the same implied potential? Are we going to assume he LOLnopes any power once he declares it unable to defeat him and takes it as his own even when he lacks the feats to be that strong? I'm not even like this with Index characters. I go by a combination of statement and abilities with feats and scaling to give a measure, otherwise you got Fiamma one-shotting fiction and Othinus being Omnipotent. Already gouged Fiamma pretty good and I've been lenient on who can beat Othinus once I'm convinced.

But those characters you mentioned have shown limits. And I'm not saying "Oh BR showed no limits therefore blah blah" do not get me wrong, even if those characters haven't shown limits there are ways to put limits on them through logic and what their power scale could extend to, ect.

Here's my question that will seal this deal, if you manage to answer it convincingly, I shall bow down at your feet and change my view on NK entirely:

For a guy who could literally manifest his own imagination (And other fictional works but were not getting into that), besides his own imagination, what other limits are there? (Disregarding NK's own innate abilities)

I
If were still talking Novel Kars with that ability, I won't say. I didn't even claim he'd lose this, just that his character is so heavily reliant on assumption of his mostly unknown abilities and interpretation from what I hear that I cannot say.

If were talking regular Bohemian Rhapsody, then it comes down to simple argument that not even Araki likely meant for it to be portrayed as that strong (Stairway to Heaven) and it's logically limited to the kind of power it can just think up. It's affected most of the planet and people were imagining Marvel characters, You'd think the earth would get nommed the moment Galactus was materialized, so it even makes you wonder if truly strong characters materialized actually have all their abilities. Their already not flesh and blood.

If were going to assume Bohemian Rhapsody can spam out mulitverse busters or even Omnipotents because of imagination, then I can just do the same with Demonbane.

How do you beat someone who can bring out an infinite number of himself consisting of all possible and impossible scenarios of what could ever be that ever existed or never existed? If we go the NLF route, I can just argue Demonbane brings out a version of itself thats Omnipotent or simply one that defeated Novel Kars and can lolnope all his abilties. It's already covered versions of itself that never existed down anyway.

Unlike the aforemention characters with similair NLFs to their powers, Novel Kars hasn't been properly challenged or even has feats to actually measure his powers. Thats really the advantage he has.

ChaosKnight75 wrote:

EVA_01 wrote:

ChaosKnight75 wrote:

EVA_01 wrote:

ChaosKnight75 wrote:

EVA_01 wrote:

ChaosKnight75 wrote:^ This really feels like NLF, especially since Novel Kars lacks feats and seeing scans of Bohemian Rhapsody is making me consider if it's really all that. The character "who can beat any fictional character" was actually made to defeat the things specifically summoned by the Stand, many of which aren't anywhere near powerful enough to really consider the character strong (doesn't help that their made of the same material as where they came from) and the Stand simply hasn't shown feats to summon characters anywhere at Elder God Demonbane with all their abilities too. That and Demonbane has a few NLFs himself. I can just say he brings out a copy of himself that will defeat Novel Kars in battle. As for the fight, won't say since Novel Kars again, lacks feats to really tell where he's at in power.

It's true, that Hero they summoned didn't defeat powerful characters.

But think of the possibilities, the potential of what this thing could do. Manifestation of fictional things? Come on, how can you not see how broken this is, does EVERYTHING need feats to figure out what it could do? Sure it does most of the time, but there are times when the potential and scale of an ability is apparent from the get go.
Do you see anyone here that disagrees with GER being able to beat STTGL? No, you don't, and that's because the scale and potential of its power is obvious despite having only a few pages worth of feats. Not everything is NLF just because it hasn't been used on stronger characters, if that's the case why do we even bother arguing for JJBA characters against characters from verses such as DBZ or whatnot?

And that's where you and I are not carbon copies of each other like most of the time (lol), to me, there are things I don't need feats for when I realize the scale and potential.

And that's why I think if, and only if, NK could imagine a character capable of defeating EGD and brings it into life he could win.
NK only has a few feats sure, but remember the kind of stands in his repertoire and remember that he reached heaven. THAT, my friend, is what I call potential.

my call on GER as I've said plenty of times and by extension, Stairway To Heaven AKA "the strongest Stand" barring maybe Requiem versions and portrayed as the be-all, end-all Stand in the same arc Bohemian Rhapsody debuted in should sum up my opinion.

I know where you're coming from and I get it, not the first time we talked about this but I wanted to explain my case to whoever is viewing this thread.

I get you it's just there's something that needs to be said for why this mentality with Bohemian Rhapsody isn't a good one. If were going by this route with Bohemian Rhapsody, then what can we take for other guys like Yhwach with the same implied potential? Are we going to assume he LOLnopes any power once he declares it unable to defeat him and takes it as his own even when he lacks the feats to be that strong? I'm not even like this with Index characters. I go by a combination of statement and abilities with feats and scaling to give a measure, otherwise you got Fiamma one-shotting fiction and Othinus being Omnipotent. Already gouged Fiamma pretty good and I've been lenient on who can beat Othinus once I'm convinced.

But those characters you mentioned have shown limits. And I'm not saying "Oh BR showed no limits therefore blah blah" do not get me wrong, even if those characters haven't shown limits there are ways to put limits on them through logic and what their power scale could extend to, ect.

Here's my question that will seal this deal, if you manage to answer it convincingly, I shall bow down at your feet and change my view on NK entirely:

For a guy who could literally manifest his own imagination (And other fictional works but were not getting into that), besides his own imagination, what other limits are there? (Disregarding NK's own innate abilities)

I
If were still talking Novel Kars with that ability, I won't say. I didn't even claim he'd lose this, just that his character is so heavily reliant on assumption of his mostly unknown abilities and interpretation from what I hear that I cannot say.

If were talking regular Bohemian Rhapsody, then it comes down to simple argument that not even Araki likely meant for it to be portrayed as that strong (Stairway to Heaven) and it's logically limited to the kind of power it can just think up. It's affected most of the planet and people were imagining Marvel characters, You'd think the earth would get nommed the moment Galactus was materialized, so it even makes you wonder if truly strong characters materialized actually have all their abilities. Their already not flesh and blood.

If were going to assume Bohemian Rhapsody can spam out mulitverse busters or even Omnipotents because of imagination, then I can just do the same with Demonbane.

How do you beat someone who can bring out an infinite number of himself consisting of all possible and impossible scenarios of what could ever be that ever existed or never existed? If we go the NLF route, I can just argue Demonbane brings out a version of itself thats Omnipotent or simply one that defeated Novel Kars and can lolnope all his abilties. It's already covered versions of itself that never existed down anyway.

Unlike the aforemention characters with similair NLFs to their powers, Novel Kars hasn't been properly challenged or even has feats to actually measure his powers. Thats really the advantage he has.

.....Cosmic, you haven't answered my question, in fact, you fortified my point.

Portrayal isn't really an argument for this case, Ungalo was a minor villain, he was meant to lose. Of course Araki wouldn't want to show a minor villain outclassing the big bad.
And so what if they're not flesh and blood? They retained their properties. Venus being extremely gorgeous, Shinjuku(?) becoming a ruined city as per the setting of "Fist of the North Star", Pinocchio's nose growing longer when he lies, etc.

Besides, what you're addressing is manifestation of fictional things that are not your own, what my question was addressing is manifestation of one's own imagination, since that was what Weather did.

Sure if you want to use that argument for DB go ahead, it just means that it will be a stalemate, immovable object meets unstoppable force.

And you returned to your original point again, feats. We'll have to agree to disagree yet again.

So yeah, besides his own imagination Kars using BR has no limits. (Exclude Omnis out)

EVA_01 wrote:

ChaosKnight75 wrote:

EVA_01 wrote:

ChaosKnight75 wrote:

EVA_01 wrote:

ChaosKnight75 wrote:

EVA_01 wrote:

ChaosKnight75 wrote:^ This really feels like NLF, especially since Novel Kars lacks feats and seeing scans of Bohemian Rhapsody is making me consider if it's really all that. The character "who can beat any fictional character" was actually made to defeat the things specifically summoned by the Stand, many of which aren't anywhere near powerful enough to really consider the character strong (doesn't help that their made of the same material as where they came from) and the Stand simply hasn't shown feats to summon characters anywhere at Elder God Demonbane with all their abilities too. That and Demonbane has a few NLFs himself. I can just say he brings out a copy of himself that will defeat Novel Kars in battle. As for the fight, won't say since Novel Kars again, lacks feats to really tell where he's at in power.

It's true, that Hero they summoned didn't defeat powerful characters.

But think of the possibilities, the potential of what this thing could do. Manifestation of fictional things? Come on, how can you not see how broken this is, does EVERYTHING need feats to figure out what it could do? Sure it does most of the time, but there are times when the potential and scale of an ability is apparent from the get go.
Do you see anyone here that disagrees with GER being able to beat STTGL? No, you don't, and that's because the scale and potential of its power is obvious despite having only a few pages worth of feats. Not everything is NLF just because it hasn't been used on stronger characters, if that's the case why do we even bother arguing for JJBA characters against characters from verses such as DBZ or whatnot?

And that's where you and I are not carbon copies of each other like most of the time (lol), to me, there are things I don't need feats for when I realize the scale and potential.

And that's why I think if, and only if, NK could imagine a character capable of defeating EGD and brings it into life he could win.
NK only has a few feats sure, but remember the kind of stands in his repertoire and remember that he reached heaven. THAT, my friend, is what I call potential.

my call on GER as I've said plenty of times and by extension, Stairway To Heaven AKA "the strongest Stand" barring maybe Requiem versions and portrayed as the be-all, end-all Stand in the same arc Bohemian Rhapsody debuted in should sum up my opinion.

I know where you're coming from and I get it, not the first time we talked about this but I wanted to explain my case to whoever is viewing this thread.

I get you it's just there's something that needs to be said for why this mentality with Bohemian Rhapsody isn't a good one. If were going by this route with Bohemian Rhapsody, then what can we take for other guys like Yhwach with the same implied potential? Are we going to assume he LOLnopes any power once he declares it unable to defeat him and takes it as his own even when he lacks the feats to be that strong? I'm not even like this with Index characters. I go by a combination of statement and abilities with feats and scaling to give a measure, otherwise you got Fiamma one-shotting fiction and Othinus being Omnipotent. Already gouged Fiamma pretty good and I've been lenient on who can beat Othinus once I'm convinced.

But those characters you mentioned have shown limits. And I'm not saying "Oh BR showed no limits therefore blah blah" do not get me wrong, even if those characters haven't shown limits there are ways to put limits on them through logic and what their power scale could extend to, ect.

Here's my question that will seal this deal, if you manage to answer it convincingly, I shall bow down at your feet and change my view on NK entirely:

For a guy who could literally manifest his own imagination (And other fictional works but were not getting into that), besides his own imagination, what other limits are there? (Disregarding NK's own innate abilities)

I
If were still talking Novel Kars with that ability, I won't say. I didn't even claim he'd lose this, just that his character is so heavily reliant on assumption of his mostly unknown abilities and interpretation from what I hear that I cannot say.

If were talking regular Bohemian Rhapsody, then it comes down to simple argument that not even Araki likely meant for it to be portrayed as that strong (Stairway to Heaven) and it's logically limited to the kind of power it can just think up. It's affected most of the planet and people were imagining Marvel characters, You'd think the earth would get nommed the moment Galactus was materialized, so it even makes you wonder if truly strong characters materialized actually have all their abilities. Their already not flesh and blood.

If were going to assume Bohemian Rhapsody can spam out mulitverse busters or even Omnipotents because of imagination, then I can just do the same with Demonbane.

How do you beat someone who can bring out an infinite number of himself consisting of all possible and impossible scenarios of what could ever be that ever existed or never existed? If we go the NLF route, I can just argue Demonbane brings out a version of itself thats Omnipotent or simply one that defeated Novel Kars and can lolnope all his abilties. It's already covered versions of itself that never existed down anyway.

Unlike the aforemention characters with similair NLFs to their powers, Novel Kars hasn't been properly challenged or even has feats to actually measure his powers. Thats really the advantage he has.

.....Cosmic, you haven't answered my question, in fact, you fortified my point.

Portrayal isn't really an argument for this case, Ungalo was a minor villain, he was meant to lose. Of course Araki wouldn't want to show a minor villain outclassing the big bad.
And so what if they're not flesh and blood? They retained their properties. Venus being extremely gorgeous, Shinjuku(?) becoming a ruined city as per the setting of "Fist of the North Star", Pinocchio's nose growing longer when he lies, etc.

Besides, what you're addressing is manifestation of fictional things that are not your own, what my question was addressing is manifestation of one's own imagination, since that was what Weather did.

Sure if you want to use that argument for DB go ahead, it just means that it will be a stalemate, immovable object meets unstoppable force.

And you returned to your original point again, feats. We'll have to agree to disagree yet again.

So yeah, besides his own imagination Kars using BR has no limits. (Exclude Omnis out)

Um Eva, I did. I'll be even more clear. Summoning Spiderman confirms the existance of Marvel in JJBA. So how come the likes of Beyonder was never even mentioned? And yes he was summoned too since Bohemian Rhapsody has infinite range and affects everything. Beyonder's first action on Earth was to make every atom of the entire planet submit to his will. But that didnt happen. Toss in every other character Marvel like Mad Jim Jaspers, Celestials, Abstracts, Abraxas (collaspse Universes just by being near them) etc. and it's a wonder why more than a good number of people dying didn't happen.

Thus it stands that even if Bohemian Rhapsody can make any fictional character come to life, it obviously has a limit to just how powerful the characters are. The fact that the constructs made are mere imitations of said characters made of whatever material they came from like paper further backs this up.

Too much of a deal is being made to as you yourself said, a minor villain of the day. Gabriel from Supernatural summoned the Hulk and there's no given limit shown to his reality warping, you don't see Supernatural fans saying he can bring out TOAA or the Living Tribunal in a debate because of it.

And if we do assume Bohemian Rhapsody is a NLF, boy can the same be done with countless characters I can think of, his opponent right now included.

This is the whole reason why Umineko gets inflated beyond reason.

Since there's no evidence whatsoever to Kars' high end capabilities in the novel, I'm going to hand the win to Demonbane this time.

And from what I'm getting here, this version of Kars has nothing but hype in his favour.

ChaosKnight75 wrote:

EVA_01 wrote:

ChaosKnight75 wrote:

EVA_01 wrote:

ChaosKnight75 wrote:

EVA_01 wrote:

ChaosKnight75 wrote:

EVA_01 wrote:

ChaosKnight75 wrote:^ This really feels like NLF, especially since Novel Kars lacks feats and seeing scans of Bohemian Rhapsody is making me consider if it's really all that. The character "who can beat any fictional character" was actually made to defeat the things specifically summoned by the Stand, many of which aren't anywhere near powerful enough to really consider the character strong (doesn't help that their made of the same material as where they came from) and the Stand simply hasn't shown feats to summon characters anywhere at Elder God Demonbane with all their abilities too. That and Demonbane has a few NLFs himself. I can just say he brings out a copy of himself that will defeat Novel Kars in battle. As for the fight, won't say since Novel Kars again, lacks feats to really tell where he's at in power.

It's true, that Hero they summoned didn't defeat powerful characters.

But think of the possibilities, the potential of what this thing could do. Manifestation of fictional things? Come on, how can you not see how broken this is, does EVERYTHING need feats to figure out what it could do? Sure it does most of the time, but there are times when the potential and scale of an ability is apparent from the get go.
Do you see anyone here that disagrees with GER being able to beat STTGL? No, you don't, and that's because the scale and potential of its power is obvious despite having only a few pages worth of feats. Not everything is NLF just because it hasn't been used on stronger characters, if that's the case why do we even bother arguing for JJBA characters against characters from verses such as DBZ or whatnot?

And that's where you and I are not carbon copies of each other like most of the time (lol), to me, there are things I don't need feats for when I realize the scale and potential.

And that's why I think if, and only if, NK could imagine a character capable of defeating EGD and brings it into life he could win.
NK only has a few feats sure, but remember the kind of stands in his repertoire and remember that he reached heaven. THAT, my friend, is what I call potential.

my call on GER as I've said plenty of times and by extension, Stairway To Heaven AKA "the strongest Stand" barring maybe Requiem versions and portrayed as the be-all, end-all Stand in the same arc Bohemian Rhapsody debuted in should sum up my opinion.

I know where you're coming from and I get it, not the first time we talked about this but I wanted to explain my case to whoever is viewing this thread.

I get you it's just there's something that needs to be said for why this mentality with Bohemian Rhapsody isn't a good one. If were going by this route with Bohemian Rhapsody, then what can we take for other guys like Yhwach with the same implied potential? Are we going to assume he LOLnopes any power once he declares it unable to defeat him and takes it as his own even when he lacks the feats to be that strong? I'm not even like this with Index characters. I go by a combination of statement and abilities with feats and scaling to give a measure, otherwise you got Fiamma one-shotting fiction and Othinus being Omnipotent. Already gouged Fiamma pretty good and I've been lenient on who can beat Othinus once I'm convinced.

But those characters you mentioned have shown limits. And I'm not saying "Oh BR showed no limits therefore blah blah" do not get me wrong, even if those characters haven't shown limits there are ways to put limits on them through logic and what their power scale could extend to, ect.

Here's my question that will seal this deal, if you manage to answer it convincingly, I shall bow down at your feet and change my view on NK entirely:

For a guy who could literally manifest his own imagination (And other fictional works but were not getting into that), besides his own imagination, what other limits are there? (Disregarding NK's own innate abilities)

I
If were still talking Novel Kars with that ability, I won't say. I didn't even claim he'd lose this, just that his character is so heavily reliant on assumption of his mostly unknown abilities and interpretation from what I hear that I cannot say.

If were talking regular Bohemian Rhapsody, then it comes down to simple argument that not even Araki likely meant for it to be portrayed as that strong (Stairway to Heaven) and it's logically limited to the kind of power it can just think up. It's affected most of the planet and people were imagining Marvel characters, You'd think the earth would get nommed the moment Galactus was materialized, so it even makes you wonder if truly strong characters materialized actually have all their abilities. Their already not flesh and blood.

If were going to assume Bohemian Rhapsody can spam out mulitverse busters or even Omnipotents because of imagination, then I can just do the same with Demonbane.

How do you beat someone who can bring out an infinite number of himself consisting of all possible and impossible scenarios of what could ever be that ever existed or never existed? If we go the NLF route, I can just argue Demonbane brings out a version of itself thats Omnipotent or simply one that defeated Novel Kars and can lolnope all his abilties. It's already covered versions of itself that never existed down anyway.

Unlike the aforemention characters with similair NLFs to their powers, Novel Kars hasn't been properly challenged or even has feats to actually measure his powers. Thats really the advantage he has.

.....Cosmic, you haven't answered my question, in fact, you fortified my point.

Portrayal isn't really an argument for this case, Ungalo was a minor villain, he was meant to lose. Of course Araki wouldn't want to show a minor villain outclassing the big bad.
And so what if they're not flesh and blood? They retained their properties. Venus being extremely gorgeous, Shinjuku(?) becoming a ruined city as per the setting of "Fist of the North Star", Pinocchio's nose growing longer when he lies, etc.

Besides, what you're addressing is manifestation of fictional things that are not your own, what my question was addressing is manifestation of one's own imagination, since that was what Weather did.

Sure if you want to use that argument for DB go ahead, it just means that it will be a stalemate, immovable object meets unstoppable force.

And you returned to your original point again, feats. We'll have to agree to disagree yet again.

So yeah, besides his own imagination Kars using BR has no limits. (Exclude Omnis out)

Um Eva, I did. I'll be even more clear. Summoning Spiderman confirms the existance of Marvel in JJBA. So how come the likes of Beyonder was never even mentioned? And yes he was summoned too since Bohemian Rhapsody has infinite range and affects everything. Beyonder's first action on Earth was to make every atom of the entire planet submit to his will. But that didnt happen. Toss in every other character Marvel like Mad Jim Jaspers, Celestials, Abstracts, Abraxas (collaspse Universes just by being near them) etc. and it's a wonder why more than a good number of people dying didn't happen.

Thus it stands that even if Bohemian Rhapsody can make any fictional character come to life, it obviously has a limit to just how powerful the characters are. The fact that the constructs made are mere imitations of said characters made of whatever material they came from like paper further backs this up.

Too much of a deal is being made to as you yourself said, a minor villain of the day. Gabriel from Supernatural summoned the Hulk and there's no given limit shown to his reality warping, you don't see Supernatural fans saying he can bring out TOAA or the Living Tribunal in a debate because of it.

No, my friend clad in cosmicness, you did not answer my question, you must have misunderstood something about my post or I didn't word it right. What I asked basically was: If you can manifest your imagination, besides things you yourself can't imagine and defeating omnipotents, what other limits are there to your power?
I wasn't talking about BR or NK I was talking about the power itself. Moving on.

See, if that was actually the case I would have agreed, but it wasn't. Not all fictional characters came to life the process was random, so it just so happens that none of these guys you mentioned were brought to life. Don't believe me? read this

effects on the world:

Notice the phrases "are being", "the most", "especially" and "would". If every fictional character came to life then every country on the planet would be affected, and the losses would be extremely great since not only mythological gods would come to life, fictional disasters would too:

Shinjuku is ruined:

Here you see Tokyo becoming setting of Fist of the North Star, how many fictional ruined civilizations / dystopias can you think of? The world be destroyed.

@ChaosKnight75

Then it depends on what Gabriel actually does. Is it reality warping? Or is it simply bringing a fictional character into life? If it's the latter then I don't see why not, however summoning TOAA would prove to be mind boggling. Either he won't be Omnipotent in Supernatural, or he won't be able to summon it altogether.

@ChaosKnight75

I come back to my point again. So what if they're mad of paper? they clearly retain all of their properties, a friggin city was brought into life. Think about it.

EVA_01 wrote:

ChaosKnight75 wrote:

EVA_01 wrote:

ChaosKnight75 wrote:

EVA_01 wrote:

ChaosKnight75 wrote:

EVA_01 wrote:

ChaosKnight75 wrote:

EVA_01 wrote:

ChaosKnight75 wrote:^ This really feels like NLF, especially since Novel Kars lacks feats and seeing scans of Bohemian Rhapsody is making me consider if it's really all that. The character "who can beat any fictional character" was actually made to defeat the things specifically summoned by the Stand, many of which aren't anywhere near powerful enough to really consider the character strong (doesn't help that their made of the same material as where they came from) and the Stand simply hasn't shown feats to summon characters anywhere at Elder God Demonbane with all their abilities too. That and Demonbane has a few NLFs himself. I can just say he brings out a copy of himself that will defeat Novel Kars in battle. As for the fight, won't say since Novel Kars again, lacks feats to really tell where he's at in power.

It's true, that Hero they summoned didn't defeat powerful characters.

But think of the possibilities, the potential of what this thing could do. Manifestation of fictional things? Come on, how can you not see how broken this is, does EVERYTHING need feats to figure out what it could do? Sure it does most of the time, but there are times when the potential and scale of an ability is apparent from the get go.
Do you see anyone here that disagrees with GER being able to beat STTGL? No, you don't, and that's because the scale and potential of its power is obvious despite having only a few pages worth of feats. Not everything is NLF just because it hasn't been used on stronger characters, if that's the case why do we even bother arguing for JJBA characters against characters from verses such as DBZ or whatnot?

And that's where you and I are not carbon copies of each other like most of the time (lol), to me, there are things I don't need feats for when I realize the scale and potential.

And that's why I think if, and only if, NK could imagine a character capable of defeating EGD and brings it into life he could win.
NK only has a few feats sure, but remember the kind of stands in his repertoire and remember that he reached heaven. THAT, my friend, is what I call potential.

my call on GER as I've said plenty of times and by extension, Stairway To Heaven AKA "the strongest Stand" barring maybe Requiem versions and portrayed as the be-all, end-all Stand in the same arc Bohemian Rhapsody debuted in should sum up my opinion.

I know where you're coming from and I get it, not the first time we talked about this but I wanted to explain my case to whoever is viewing this thread.

I get you it's just there's something that needs to be said for why this mentality with Bohemian Rhapsody isn't a good one. If were going by this route with Bohemian Rhapsody, then what can we take for other guys like Yhwach with the same implied potential? Are we going to assume he LOLnopes any power once he declares it unable to defeat him and takes it as his own even when he lacks the feats to be that strong? I'm not even like this with Index characters. I go by a combination of statement and abilities with feats and scaling to give a measure, otherwise you got Fiamma one-shotting fiction and Othinus being Omnipotent. Already gouged Fiamma pretty good and I've been lenient on who can beat Othinus once I'm convinced.

But those characters you mentioned have shown limits. And I'm not saying "Oh BR showed no limits therefore blah blah" do not get me wrong, even if those characters haven't shown limits there are ways to put limits on them through logic and what their power scale could extend to, ect.

Here's my question that will seal this deal, if you manage to answer it convincingly, I shall bow down at your feet and change my view on NK entirely:

For a guy who could literally manifest his own imagination (And other fictional works but were not getting into that), besides his own imagination, what other limits are there? (Disregarding NK's own innate abilities)

I
If were still talking Novel Kars with that ability, I won't say. I didn't even claim he'd lose this, just that his character is so heavily reliant on assumption of his mostly unknown abilities and interpretation from what I hear that I cannot say.

If were talking regular Bohemian Rhapsody, then it comes down to simple argument that not even Araki likely meant for it to be portrayed as that strong (Stairway to Heaven) and it's logically limited to the kind of power it can just think up. It's affected most of the planet and people were imagining Marvel characters, You'd think the earth would get nommed the moment Galactus was materialized, so it even makes you wonder if truly strong characters materialized actually have all their abilities. Their already not flesh and blood.

If were going to assume Bohemian Rhapsody can spam out mulitverse busters or even Omnipotents because of imagination, then I can just do the same with Demonbane.

How do you beat someone who can bring out an infinite number of himself consisting of all possible and impossible scenarios of what could ever be that ever existed or never existed? If we go the NLF route, I can just argue Demonbane brings out a version of itself thats Omnipotent or simply one that defeated Novel Kars and can lolnope all his abilties. It's already covered versions of itself that never existed down anyway.

Unlike the aforemention characters with similair NLFs to their powers, Novel Kars hasn't been properly challenged or even has feats to actually measure his powers. Thats really the advantage he has.

.....Cosmic, you haven't answered my question, in fact, you fortified my point.

Portrayal isn't really an argument for this case, Ungalo was a minor villain, he was meant to lose. Of course Araki wouldn't want to show a minor villain outclassing the big bad.
And so what if they're not flesh and blood? They retained their properties. Venus being extremely gorgeous, Shinjuku(?) becoming a ruined city as per the setting of "Fist of the North Star", Pinocchio's nose growing longer when he lies, etc.

Besides, what you're addressing is manifestation of fictional things that are not your own, what my question was addressing is manifestation of one's own imagination, since that was what Weather did.

Sure if you want to use that argument for DB go ahead, it just means that it will be a stalemate, immovable object meets unstoppable force.

And you returned to your original point again, feats. We'll have to agree to disagree yet again.

So yeah, besides his own imagination Kars using BR has no limits. (Exclude Omnis out)

Um Eva, I did. I'll be even more clear. Summoning Spiderman confirms the existance of Marvel in JJBA. So how come the likes of Beyonder was never even mentioned? And yes he was summoned too since Bohemian Rhapsody has infinite range and affects everything. Beyonder's first action on Earth was to make every atom of the entire planet submit to his will. But that didnt happen. Toss in every other character Marvel like Mad Jim Jaspers, Celestials, Abstracts, Abraxas (collaspse Universes just by being near them) etc. and it's a wonder why more than a good number of people dying didn't happen.

Thus it stands that even if Bohemian Rhapsody can make any fictional character come to life, it obviously has a limit to just how powerful the characters are. The fact that the constructs made are mere imitations of said characters made of whatever material they came from like paper further backs this up.

Too much of a deal is being made to as you yourself said, a minor villain of the day. Gabriel from Supernatural summoned the Hulk and there's no given limit shown to his reality warping, you don't see Supernatural fans saying he can bring out TOAA or the Living Tribunal in a debate because of it.

No, my friend clad in cosmicness, you did not answer my question, you must have misunderstood something about my post or I didn't word it right. What I asked basically was: If you can manifest your imagination, besides things you yourself can't imagine and defeating omnipotents, what other limits are there to your power?
I wasn't talking about BR or NK I was talking about the power itself. Moving on.

See, if that was actually the case I would have agreed, but it wasn't. Not all fictional characters came to life the process was random, so it just so happens that none of these guys you mentioned were brought to life. Don't believe me? read this

effects on the world:

Notice the phrases "are being", "the most", "especially" and "would". If every fictional character came to life then every country on the planet would be affected, and the losses would be extremely great since not only mythological gods would come to life, fictional disasters would too:

Shinjuku is ruined:

Here you see Tokyo becoming setting of Fist of the North Star, how many fictional ruined civilizations / dystopias can you think of? The world be destroyed.

You just answered it for me. Those scans show it clearly has limit to what it can bring out. So nothing like summoning out Beyonder or the likes of that.

Gabriel brought the Hulk right to life just to kill a guy who had a bad temper.

ChaosKnight75 wrote:

EVA_01 wrote:

ChaosKnight75 wrote:

EVA_01 wrote:

ChaosKnight75 wrote:

EVA_01 wrote:

ChaosKnight75 wrote:

EVA_01 wrote:

ChaosKnight75 wrote:

EVA_01 wrote:

ChaosKnight75 wrote:^ This really feels like NLF, especially since Novel Kars lacks feats and seeing scans of Bohemian Rhapsody is making me consider if it's really all that. The character "who can beat any fictional character" was actually made to defeat the things specifically summoned by the Stand, many of which aren't anywhere near powerful enough to really consider the character strong (doesn't help that their made of the same material as where they came from) and the Stand simply hasn't shown feats to summon characters anywhere at Elder God Demonbane with all their abilities too. That and Demonbane has a few NLFs himself. I can just say he brings out a copy of himself that will defeat Novel Kars in battle. As for the fight, won't say since Novel Kars again, lacks feats to really tell where he's at in power.

It's true, that Hero they summoned didn't defeat powerful characters.

But think of the possibilities, the potential of what this thing could do. Manifestation of fictional things? Come on, how can you not see how broken this is, does EVERYTHING need feats to figure out what it could do? Sure it does most of the time, but there are times when the potential and scale of an ability is apparent from the get go.
Do you see anyone here that disagrees with GER being able to beat STTGL? No, you don't, and that's because the scale and potential of its power is obvious despite having only a few pages worth of feats. Not everything is NLF just because it hasn't been used on stronger characters, if that's the case why do we even bother arguing for JJBA characters against characters from verses such as DBZ or whatnot?

And that's where you and I are not carbon copies of each other like most of the time (lol), to me, there are things I don't need feats for when I realize the scale and potential.

And that's why I think if, and only if, NK could imagine a character capable of defeating EGD and brings it into life he could win.
NK only has a few feats sure, but remember the kind of stands in his repertoire and remember that he reached heaven. THAT, my friend, is what I call potential.

my call on GER as I've said plenty of times and by extension, Stairway To Heaven AKA "the strongest Stand" barring maybe Requiem versions and portrayed as the be-all, end-all Stand in the same arc Bohemian Rhapsody debuted in should sum up my opinion.

I know where you're coming from and I get it, not the first time we talked about this but I wanted to explain my case to whoever is viewing this thread.

I get you it's just there's something that needs to be said for why this mentality with Bohemian Rhapsody isn't a good one. If were going by this route with Bohemian Rhapsody, then what can we take for other guys like Yhwach with the same implied potential? Are we going to assume he LOLnopes any power once he declares it unable to defeat him and takes it as his own even when he lacks the feats to be that strong? I'm not even like this with Index characters. I go by a combination of statement and abilities with feats and scaling to give a measure, otherwise you got Fiamma one-shotting fiction and Othinus being Omnipotent. Already gouged Fiamma pretty good and I've been lenient on who can beat Othinus once I'm convinced.

But those characters you mentioned have shown limits. And I'm not saying "Oh BR showed no limits therefore blah blah" do not get me wrong, even if those characters haven't shown limits there are ways to put limits on them through logic and what their power scale could extend to, ect.

Here's my question that will seal this deal, if you manage to answer it convincingly, I shall bow down at your feet and change my view on NK entirely:

For a guy who could literally manifest his own imagination (And other fictional works but were not getting into that), besides his own imagination, what other limits are there? (Disregarding NK's own innate abilities)

I
If were still talking Novel Kars with that ability, I won't say. I didn't even claim he'd lose this, just that his character is so heavily reliant on assumption of his mostly unknown abilities and interpretation from what I hear that I cannot say.

If were talking regular Bohemian Rhapsody, then it comes down to simple argument that not even Araki likely meant for it to be portrayed as that strong (Stairway to Heaven) and it's logically limited to the kind of power it can just think up. It's affected most of the planet and people were imagining Marvel characters, You'd think the earth would get nommed the moment Galactus was materialized, so it even makes you wonder if truly strong characters materialized actually have all their abilities. Their already not flesh and blood.

If were going to assume Bohemian Rhapsody can spam out mulitverse busters or even Omnipotents because of imagination, then I can just do the same with Demonbane.

How do you beat someone who can bring out an infinite number of himself consisting of all possible and impossible scenarios of what could ever be that ever existed or never existed? If we go the NLF route, I can just argue Demonbane brings out a version of itself thats Omnipotent or simply one that defeated Novel Kars and can lolnope all his abilties. It's already covered versions of itself that never existed down anyway.

Unlike the aforemention characters with similair NLFs to their powers, Novel Kars hasn't been properly challenged or even has feats to actually measure his powers. Thats really the advantage he has.

.....Cosmic, you haven't answered my question, in fact, you fortified my point.

Portrayal isn't really an argument for this case, Ungalo was a minor villain, he was meant to lose. Of course Araki wouldn't want to show a minor villain outclassing the big bad.
And so what if they're not flesh and blood? They retained their properties. Venus being extremely gorgeous, Shinjuku(?) becoming a ruined city as per the setting of "Fist of the North Star", Pinocchio's nose growing longer when he lies, etc.

Besides, what you're addressing is manifestation of fictional things that are not your own, what my question was addressing is manifestation of one's own imagination, since that was what Weather did.

Sure if you want to use that argument for DB go ahead, it just means that it will be a stalemate, immovable object meets unstoppable force.

And you returned to your original point again, feats. We'll have to agree to disagree yet again.

So yeah, besides his own imagination Kars using BR has no limits. (Exclude Omnis out)

Um Eva, I did. I'll be even more clear. Summoning Spiderman confirms the existance of Marvel in JJBA. So how come the likes of Beyonder was never even mentioned? And yes he was summoned too since Bohemian Rhapsody has infinite range and affects everything. Beyonder's first action on Earth was to make every atom of the entire planet submit to his will. But that didnt happen. Toss in every other character Marvel like Mad Jim Jaspers, Celestials, Abstracts, Abraxas (collaspse Universes just by being near them) etc. and it's a wonder why more than a good number of people dying didn't happen.

Thus it stands that even if Bohemian Rhapsody can make any fictional character come to life, it obviously has a limit to just how powerful the characters are. The fact that the constructs made are mere imitations of said characters made of whatever material they came from like paper further backs this up.

Too much of a deal is being made to as you yourself said, a minor villain of the day. Gabriel from Supernatural summoned the Hulk and there's no given limit shown to his reality warping, you don't see Supernatural fans saying he can bring out TOAA or the Living Tribunal in a debate because of it.

No, my friend clad in cosmicness, you did not answer my question, you must have misunderstood something about my post or I didn't word it right. What I asked basically was: If you can manifest your imagination, besides things you yourself can't imagine and defeating omnipotents, what other limits are there to your power?
I wasn't talking about BR or NK I was talking about the power itself. Moving on.

See, if that was actually the case I would have agreed, but it wasn't. Not all fictional characters came to life the process was random, so it just so happens that none of these guys you mentioned were brought to life. Don't believe me? read this

effects on the world:

Notice the phrases "are being", "the most", "especially" and "would". If every fictional character came to life then every country on the planet would be affected, and the losses would be extremely great since not only mythological gods would come to life, fictional disasters would too:

Shinjuku is ruined:

Here you see Tokyo becoming setting of Fist of the North Star, how many fictional ruined civilizations / dystopias can you think of? The world be destroyed.

You just answered it for me. Those scans show it clearly has limit to what it can bring out. So nothing like summoning out Beyonder or the likes of that.

Gabriel brought the Hulk right to life just to kill a guy who had a bad temper.

Limit to what? There was no limit shown, I just explained that the process was random and it just so happens that all these powerful guys you're talking about weren't brought to life yet.
Also, you didn't explain why BR wouldn't be able to bring them out. Because they're too powerful? What? How is that a limitation, they're still fictional.

EVA_01 wrote:

ChaosKnight75 wrote:

EVA_01 wrote:

ChaosKnight75 wrote:

EVA_01 wrote:

ChaosKnight75 wrote:

EVA_01 wrote:

ChaosKnight75 wrote:

EVA_01 wrote:

ChaosKnight75 wrote:

EVA_01 wrote:

ChaosKnight75 wrote:^ This really feels like NLF, especially since Novel Kars lacks feats and seeing scans of Bohemian Rhapsody is making me consider if it's really all that. The character "who can beat any fictional character" was actually made to defeat the things specifically summoned by the Stand, many of which aren't anywhere near powerful enough to really consider the character strong (doesn't help that their made of the same material as where they came from) and the Stand simply hasn't shown feats to summon characters anywhere at Elder God Demonbane with all their abilities too. That and Demonbane has a few NLFs himself. I can just say he brings out a copy of himself that will defeat Novel Kars in battle. As for the fight, won't say since Novel Kars again, lacks feats to really tell where he's at in power.

It's true, that Hero they summoned didn't defeat powerful characters.

But think of the possibilities, the potential of what this thing could do. Manifestation of fictional things? Come on, how can you not see how broken this is, does EVERYTHING need feats to figure out what it could do? Sure it does most of the time, but there are times when the potential and scale of an ability is apparent from the get go.
Do you see anyone here that disagrees with GER being able to beat STTGL? No, you don't, and that's because the scale and potential of its power is obvious despite having only a few pages worth of feats. Not everything is NLF just because it hasn't been used on stronger characters, if that's the case why do we even bother arguing for JJBA characters against characters from verses such as DBZ or whatnot?

And that's where you and I are not carbon copies of each other like most of the time (lol), to me, there are things I don't need feats for when I realize the scale and potential.

And that's why I think if, and only if, NK could imagine a character capable of defeating EGD and brings it into life he could win.
NK only has a few feats sure, but remember the kind of stands in his repertoire and remember that he reached heaven. THAT, my friend, is what I call potential.

my call on GER as I've said plenty of times and by extension, Stairway To Heaven AKA "the strongest Stand" barring maybe Requiem versions and portrayed as the be-all, end-all Stand in the same arc Bohemian Rhapsody debuted in should sum up my opinion.

I know where you're coming from and I get it, not the first time we talked about this but I wanted to explain my case to whoever is viewing this thread.

I get you it's just there's something that needs to be said for why this mentality with Bohemian Rhapsody isn't a good one. If were going by this route with Bohemian Rhapsody, then what can we take for other guys like Yhwach with the same implied potential? Are we going to assume he LOLnopes any power once he declares it unable to defeat him and takes it as his own even when he lacks the feats to be that strong? I'm not even like this with Index characters. I go by a combination of statement and abilities with feats and scaling to give a measure, otherwise you got Fiamma one-shotting fiction and Othinus being Omnipotent. Already gouged Fiamma pretty good and I've been lenient on who can beat Othinus once I'm convinced.

But those characters you mentioned have shown limits. And I'm not saying "Oh BR showed no limits therefore blah blah" do not get me wrong, even if those characters haven't shown limits there are ways to put limits on them through logic and what their power scale could extend to, ect.

Here's my question that will seal this deal, if you manage to answer it convincingly, I shall bow down at your feet and change my view on NK entirely:

For a guy who could literally manifest his own imagination (And other fictional works but were not getting into that), besides his own imagination, what other limits are there? (Disregarding NK's own innate abilities)

I
If were still talking Novel Kars with that ability, I won't say. I didn't even claim he'd lose this, just that his character is so heavily reliant on assumption of his mostly unknown abilities and interpretation from what I hear that I cannot say.

If were talking regular Bohemian Rhapsody, then it comes down to simple argument that not even Araki likely meant for it to be portrayed as that strong (Stairway to Heaven) and it's logically limited to the kind of power it can just think up. It's affected most of the planet and people were imagining Marvel characters, You'd think the earth would get nommed the moment Galactus was materialized, so it even makes you wonder if truly strong characters materialized actually have all their abilities. Their already not flesh and blood.

If were going to assume Bohemian Rhapsody can spam out mulitverse busters or even Omnipotents because of imagination, then I can just do the same with Demonbane.

How do you beat someone who can bring out an infinite number of himself consisting of all possible and impossible scenarios of what could ever be that ever existed or never existed? If we go the NLF route, I can just argue Demonbane brings out a version of itself thats Omnipotent or simply one that defeated Novel Kars and can lolnope all his abilties. It's already covered versions of itself that never existed down anyway.

Unlike the aforemention characters with similair NLFs to their powers, Novel Kars hasn't been properly challenged or even has feats to actually measure his powers. Thats really the advantage he has.

.....Cosmic, you haven't answered my question, in fact, you fortified my point.

Portrayal isn't really an argument for this case, Ungalo was a minor villain, he was meant to lose. Of course Araki wouldn't want to show a minor villain outclassing the big bad.
And so what if they're not flesh and blood? They retained their properties. Venus being extremely gorgeous, Shinjuku(?) becoming a ruined city as per the setting of "Fist of the North Star", Pinocchio's nose growing longer when he lies, etc.

Besides, what you're addressing is manifestation of fictional things that are not your own, what my question was addressing is manifestation of one's own imagination, since that was what Weather did.

Sure if you want to use that argument for DB go ahead, it just means that it will be a stalemate, immovable object meets unstoppable force.

And you returned to your original point again, feats. We'll have to agree to disagree yet again.

So yeah, besides his own imagination Kars using BR has no limits. (Exclude Omnis out)

Um Eva, I did. I'll be even more clear. Summoning Spiderman confirms the existance of Marvel in JJBA. So how come the likes of Beyonder was never even mentioned? And yes he was summoned too since Bohemian Rhapsody has infinite range and affects everything. Beyonder's first action on Earth was to make every atom of the entire planet submit to his will. But that didnt happen. Toss in every other character Marvel like Mad Jim Jaspers, Celestials, Abstracts, Abraxas (collaspse Universes just by being near them) etc. and it's a wonder why more than a good number of people dying didn't happen.

Thus it stands that even if Bohemian Rhapsody can make any fictional character come to life, it obviously has a limit to just how powerful the characters are. The fact that the constructs made are mere imitations of said characters made of whatever material they came from like paper further backs this up.

Too much of a deal is being made to as you yourself said, a minor villain of the day. Gabriel from Supernatural summoned the Hulk and there's no given limit shown to his reality warping, you don't see Supernatural fans saying he can bring out TOAA or the Living Tribunal in a debate because of it.

No, my friend clad in cosmicness, you did not answer my question, you must have misunderstood something about my post or I didn't word it right. What I asked basically was: If you can manifest your imagination, besides things you yourself can't imagine and defeating omnipotents, what other limits are there to your power?
I wasn't talking about BR or NK I was talking about the power itself. Moving on.

See, if that was actually the case I would have agreed, but it wasn't. Not all fictional characters came to life the process was random, so it just so happens that none of these guys you mentioned were brought to life. Don't believe me? read this

effects on the world:

Notice the phrases "are being", "the most", "especially" and "would". If every fictional character came to life then every country on the planet would be affected, and the losses would be extremely great since not only mythological gods would come to life, fictional disasters would too:

Shinjuku is ruined:

Here you see Tokyo becoming setting of Fist of the North Star, how many fictional ruined civilizations / dystopias can you think of? The world be destroyed.

You just answered it for me. Those scans show it clearly has limit to what it can bring out. So nothing like summoning out Beyonder or the likes of that.

Gabriel brought the Hulk right to life just to kill a guy who had a bad temper.

Limit to what? There was no limit shown, I just explained that the process was random and it just so happens that all these powerful guys you're talking about weren't brought to life yet.
Also, you didn't explain why BR wouldn't be able to bring them out. Because they're too powerful? What? How is that a limitation, they're still fictional.

An entirely random process that still affecting several countries and franchises like Marvel with countless characters that wipe out the Earth and more with a gesture. And yet said threats are conveniently left out and hell most of the characters summoned are hardly impressive.

Do you know how contradictory that sounds?

Being paper means everything. You know, since the real deal is actually flesh and blood? Even more safe to assume the constructs are nothing more than mere imitations and not the actual beings with the same power.

ChaosKnight75 wrote:

EVA_01 wrote:

ChaosKnight75 wrote:

EVA_01 wrote:

ChaosKnight75 wrote:

EVA_01 wrote:

ChaosKnight75 wrote:

EVA_01 wrote:

ChaosKnight75 wrote:

EVA_01 wrote:

ChaosKnight75 wrote:

EVA_01 wrote:

ChaosKnight75 wrote:^ This really feels like NLF, especially since Novel Kars lacks feats and seeing scans of Bohemian Rhapsody is making me consider if it's really all that. The character "who can beat any fictional character" was actually made to defeat the things specifically summoned by the Stand, many of which aren't anywhere near powerful enough to really consider the character strong (doesn't help that their made of the same material as where they came from) and the Stand simply hasn't shown feats to summon characters anywhere at Elder God Demonbane with all their abilities too. That and Demonbane has a few NLFs himself. I can just say he brings out a copy of himself that will defeat Novel Kars in battle. As for the fight, won't say since Novel Kars again, lacks feats to really tell where he's at in power.

It's true, that Hero they summoned didn't defeat powerful characters.

But think of the possibilities, the potential of what this thing could do. Manifestation of fictional things? Come on, how can you not see how broken this is, does EVERYTHING need feats to figure out what it could do? Sure it does most of the time, but there are times when the potential and scale of an ability is apparent from the get go.
Do you see anyone here that disagrees with GER being able to beat STTGL? No, you don't, and that's because the scale and potential of its power is obvious despite having only a few pages worth of feats. Not everything is NLF just because it hasn't been used on stronger characters, if that's the case why do we even bother arguing for JJBA characters against characters from verses such as DBZ or whatnot?

And that's where you and I are not carbon copies of each other like most of the time (lol), to me, there are things I don't need feats for when I realize the scale and potential.

And that's why I think if, and only if, NK could imagine a character capable of defeating EGD and brings it into life he could win.
NK only has a few feats sure, but remember the kind of stands in his repertoire and remember that he reached heaven. THAT, my friend, is what I call potential.

my call on GER as I've said plenty of times and by extension, Stairway To Heaven AKA "the strongest Stand" barring maybe Requiem versions and portrayed as the be-all, end-all Stand in the same arc Bohemian Rhapsody debuted in should sum up my opinion.

I know where you're coming from and I get it, not the first time we talked about this but I wanted to explain my case to whoever is viewing this thread.

I get you it's just there's something that needs to be said for why this mentality with Bohemian Rhapsody isn't a good one. If were going by this route with Bohemian Rhapsody, then what can we take for other guys like Yhwach with the same implied potential? Are we going to assume he LOLnopes any power once he declares it unable to defeat him and takes it as his own even when he lacks the feats to be that strong? I'm not even like this with Index characters. I go by a combination of statement and abilities with feats and scaling to give a measure, otherwise you got Fiamma one-shotting fiction and Othinus being Omnipotent. Already gouged Fiamma pretty good and I've been lenient on who can beat Othinus once I'm convinced.

But those characters you mentioned have shown limits. And I'm not saying "Oh BR showed no limits therefore blah blah" do not get me wrong, even if those characters haven't shown limits there are ways to put limits on them through logic and what their power scale could extend to, ect.

Here's my question that will seal this deal, if you manage to answer it convincingly, I shall bow down at your feet and change my view on NK entirely:

For a guy who could literally manifest his own imagination (And other fictional works but were not getting into that), besides his own imagination, what other limits are there? (Disregarding NK's own innate abilities)

I
If were still talking Novel Kars with that ability, I won't say. I didn't even claim he'd lose this, just that his character is so heavily reliant on assumption of his mostly unknown abilities and interpretation from what I hear that I cannot say.

If were talking regular Bohemian Rhapsody, then it comes down to simple argument that not even Araki likely meant for it to be portrayed as that strong (Stairway to Heaven) and it's logically limited to the kind of power it can just think up. It's affected most of the planet and people were imagining Marvel characters, You'd think the earth would get nommed the moment Galactus was materialized, so it even makes you wonder if truly strong characters materialized actually have all their abilities. Their already not flesh and blood.

If were going to assume Bohemian Rhapsody can spam out mulitverse busters or even Omnipotents because of imagination, then I can just do the same with Demonbane.

How do you beat someone who can bring out an infinite number of himself consisting of all possible and impossible scenarios of what could ever be that ever existed or never existed? If we go the NLF route, I can just argue Demonbane brings out a version of itself thats Omnipotent or simply one that defeated Novel Kars and can lolnope all his abilties. It's already covered versions of itself that never existed down anyway.

Unlike the aforemention characters with similair NLFs to their powers, Novel Kars hasn't been properly challenged or even has feats to actually measure his powers. Thats really the advantage he has.

.....Cosmic, you haven't answered my question, in fact, you fortified my point.

Portrayal isn't really an argument for this case, Ungalo was a minor villain, he was meant to lose. Of course Araki wouldn't want to show a minor villain outclassing the big bad.
And so what if they're not flesh and blood? They retained their properties. Venus being extremely gorgeous, Shinjuku(?) becoming a ruined city as per the setting of "Fist of the North Star", Pinocchio's nose growing longer when he lies, etc.

Besides, what you're addressing is manifestation of fictional things that are not your own, what my question was addressing is manifestation of one's own imagination, since that was what Weather did.

Sure if you want to use that argument for DB go ahead, it just means that it will be a stalemate, immovable object meets unstoppable force.

And you returned to your original point again, feats. We'll have to agree to disagree yet again.

So yeah, besides his own imagination Kars using BR has no limits. (Exclude Omnis out)

Um Eva, I did. I'll be even more clear. Summoning Spiderman confirms the existance of Marvel in JJBA. So how come the likes of Beyonder was never even mentioned? And yes he was summoned too since Bohemian Rhapsody has infinite range and affects everything. Beyonder's first action on Earth was to make every atom of the entire planet submit to his will. But that didnt happen. Toss in every other character Marvel like Mad Jim Jaspers, Celestials, Abstracts, Abraxas (collaspse Universes just by being near them) etc. and it's a wonder why more than a good number of people dying didn't happen.

Thus it stands that even if Bohemian Rhapsody can make any fictional character come to life, it obviously has a limit to just how powerful the characters are. The fact that the constructs made are mere imitations of said characters made of whatever material they came from like paper further backs this up.

Too much of a deal is being made to as you yourself said, a minor villain of the day. Gabriel from Supernatural summoned the Hulk and there's no given limit shown to his reality warping, you don't see Supernatural fans saying he can bring out TOAA or the Living Tribunal in a debate because of it.

No, my friend clad in cosmicness, you did not answer my question, you must have misunderstood something about my post or I didn't word it right. What I asked basically was: If you can manifest your imagination, besides things you yourself can't imagine and defeating omnipotents, what other limits are there to your power?
I wasn't talking about BR or NK I was talking about the power itself. Moving on.

See, if that was actually the case I would have agreed, but it wasn't. Not all fictional characters came to life the process was random, so it just so happens that none of these guys you mentioned were brought to life. Don't believe me? read this

effects on the world:

Notice the phrases "are being", "the most", "especially" and "would". If every fictional character came to life then every country on the planet would be affected, and the losses would be extremely great since not only mythological gods would come to life, fictional disasters would too:

Shinjuku is ruined:

Here you see Tokyo becoming setting of Fist of the North Star, how many fictional ruined civilizations / dystopias can you think of? The world be destroyed.

You just answered it for me. Those scans show it clearly has limit to what it can bring out. So nothing like summoning out Beyonder or the likes of that.

Gabriel brought the Hulk right to life just to kill a guy who had a bad temper.

Limit to what? There was no limit shown, I just explained that the process was random and it just so happens that all these powerful guys you're talking about weren't brought to life yet.
Also, you didn't explain why BR wouldn't be able to bring them out. Because they're too powerful? What? How is that a limitation, they're still fictional.

An entirely random process that still affecting several countries and franchises like Marvel with countless characters that wipe out the Earth and more with a gesture. And yet said threats are conveniently left out and hell most of the characters summoned are hardly impressive.

Do you know how contradictory that sounds?

Being paper means everything. You know, since the real deal is actually flesh and blood? Even more safe to assume the constructs are nothing more than mere imitations and not the actual beings with the same power.

Yes, convenience, it's called plot, and it's also called "Araki probably doesn't even know such characters exist in the first place".
Not contradictory, just extremely convenient.

Read the scan again. "But there is much confusion to the damage incurred upon the city". A city was ruined as per the setting of FOTNS, and you're telling me because it's paper they don't pack the same power? What proves that? Do you have proof? Or is just because they're not made of flesh and blood? You have o evidence of that.

EVA_01 wrote:@ChaosKnight75

Then it depends on what Gabriel actually does. Is it reality warping? Or is it simply bringing a fictional character into life? If it's the latter then I don't see why not, however summoning TOAA would prove to be mind boggling. Either he won't be Omnipotent in Supernatural, or he won't be able to summon it altogether.

Just to make it clear, Gabriel couldn't summon TOAA in his wildest dreams. But leaving that aside, he summoned a fictional character. A fictional character that was well within his power range. Gabriel's shown pocket dimension creation powers and pretty nice time fuckery. And probably would get lots of others via powerscalling from random Angels.

But simply put, summon an omnipotent character is, in itself, an act of Omnipotence. And Gabriel sure isn't omnipotent. Therefore, being not omnipotent, all his powers have limits. Which would apply to Bohemian Rhapsody since the Stand isn't omnipotent. Also, if the summoned TOAA were to be nerfed, the summoned thing isn't TOAA. Period.

And to make an omnipotent do the user's (or Gabriel's) bidding... that's something I won't get in, because it's bullshit, a steaming hot pile of bullshit.

EVA_01 wrote:Yes, convenience, it's called plot, and it's also called "Araki probably doesn't even know such characters exist in the first place".
Not contradictory, just extremely convenient.

Read the scan again. "But there is much confusion to the damage incurred upon the city". A city was ruined as per the setting of FOTNS, and you're telling me because it's paper they don't pack the same power? What proves that? Do you have proof? Or is just because they're not made of flesh and blood? You have o evidence of that.

That's not how things work. What the author knew about Marvel, for example, is irrelevant. Bohemian Rhapsody didn't pull a Marquis of Death and summon Eternity to wipe Ungalo's ass with. Therefore, it can't. We work within the scope the work itself sets.

trexalfa wrote:

EVA_01 wrote:@ChaosKnight75

Then it depends on what Gabriel actually does. Is it reality warping? Or is it simply bringing a fictional character into life? If it's the latter then I don't see why not, however summoning TOAA would prove to be mind boggling. Either he won't be Omnipotent in Supernatural, or he won't be able to summon it altogether.

Just to make it clear, Gabriel couldn't summon TOAA in his wildest dreams. But leaving that aside, he summoned a fictional character. A fictional character that was well within his power range. Gabriel's shown pocket dimension creation powers and pretty nice time fuckery. And probably would get lots of others via powerscalling from random Angels.

But simply put, summon an omnipotent character is, in itself, an act of Omnipotence. And Gabriel sure isn't omnipotent. Therefore, being not omnipotent, all his powers have limits. Which would apply to Bohemian Rhapsody since the Stand isn't omnipotent. Also, if the summoned TOAA were to be nerfed, the summoned thing isn't TOAA. Period.

And to make an omnipotent do the user's (or Gabriel's) bidding... that's something I won't get in, because it's bullshit, a steaming hot pile of bullshit.

I did address that, and I did say BR couldn't deal with Omnipotents, that's absurd. Read my posts again

EVA_01 wrote:

trexalfa wrote:

EVA_01 wrote:@ChaosKnight75

Then it depends on what Gabriel actually does. Is it reality warping? Or is it simply bringing a fictional character into life? If it's the latter then I don't see why not, however summoning TOAA would prove to be mind boggling. Either he won't be Omnipotent in Supernatural, or he won't be able to summon it altogether.

Just to make it clear, Gabriel couldn't summon TOAA in his wildest dreams. But leaving that aside, he summoned a fictional character. A fictional character that was well within his power range. Gabriel's shown pocket dimension creation powers and pretty nice time fuckery. And probably would get lots of others via powerscalling from random Angels.

But simply put, summon an omnipotent character is, in itself, an act of Omnipotence. And Gabriel sure isn't omnipotent. Therefore, being not omnipotent, all his powers have limits. Which would apply to Bohemian Rhapsody since the Stand isn't omnipotent. Also, if the summoned TOAA were to be nerfed, the summoned thing isn't TOAA. Period.

And to make an omnipotent do the user's (or Gabriel's) bidding... that's something I won't get in, because it's bullshit, a steaming hot pile of bullshit.

I did address that, and I did say BR couldn't deal with Omnipotents, that's absurd. Read my posts again

And I did address the nerfing. Which means it wouldn't be summoning TOAA in the first place.

In the first place, the Stand won't be able to summon characters massively beyond what it has shown. And since I don't remember seeing feats for Kars' version of the Stand, we are grasping at straws. We simply cannot debate it (for god's sake, Gold Experience went from mild nature control, to causality manipulation in the Requiem version).