Reinhard Tristan Eugene Heydrich vs Pre Retcon Molecule Man

Reinhard Tristan Eugene Heydrich: 

VS

Pre Retcon Molecule Man: 


No CIS/PIS, no BFR, bith in character.

Fight takes place in the Stephen King universe.

Who wins?

I have no idea, to be honest. I know very little of MM. Probably Reinhard though.

Holy shit. I don't know about Reinhard but he's gotta be a BEAST to take on pre retcon MM. Since he's on par with the Beyonder (I believe).

Kobra wrote:Holy shit. I don't know about Reinhard but he's gotta be a BEAST to take on pre retcon MM. Since he's on par with the Beyonder (I believe).

Reinhard is supposed to be really powerful, at least powerful enough to take on Demi-Fiend before TDE, and possibly even Othinus. But that's all i really know of him, he's mostly a mystery to me as well.

Kobra wrote:Holy shit. I don't know about Reinhard but he's gotta be a BEAST to take on pre retcon MM. Since he's on par with the Beyonder (I believe).

"His actual power is his Aztiluth, Dies irae. Basically manifesting the millions (100 million+, expanding by even more) of souls contained within himself into multiverse conceptual level gods with their own Taikyoku*, while his desire/sheer power assimilates all of creation to be governed by his law: eternal war in his Valhalla. 

Each Legionnaire lacks a concept of death (even before godhood), can tank all of Snake's attacks, which include multiverse busting, and have concept defenses (note Reinhard has this as well). Reinhard can also convert people he kills or hits with Longinuslanze into his own Legionnaire(s). He also was fighting fine at the Throne with Mercury (as were his Legions), which like I noted lacks a concept of time. 

 His lance, which is called Longinuslanze Testamenet, becomes a weapon that ignores concepts of speed, distance, durability and missing, basically an insta-kill weapon. A Taikyoku is the Law (they emanate concepts, the foundation of reality) that a god holds over, based of said god's desire (for instance, Reinhard has IIRC "I love everything and want everything to last for eternity"). 

When gods fight, it's not physical but between their Taikyoku's. It's also kind of like DBZ: Taikyoku (powerlevels) are all that matters. If you have a higher Taikyoku than your opponents, you can always win. Hadou/Gudou Gods are living concepts/universes who possess Taikyoku's, and typically vie (in Hadou God's case) to merging with the Godhead, becoming the next Throne God ie everything that exists." -EvilMegaCookie


"Reinhard is inbetween multiverse+ - metaverse+ since the fight between him and Mercurius destroyed the Throne which has Metaversal+ durability and his Longinuslanze Testament - Holy Spear of Destiny has: 

 Stroke of Fate - Longinuslanze conceptual weapon, a spear is fast than the concept of speed (infinite speed), as well as the inevitable (infinite range), and just kill anything (erases existence) . In addition, it still burns the soul and mind. 

Spiritual power - Lance is so strong that just by looking at him, the soul of the beholder will be permanently burned, mind erased, and their existence erased. 

Negation - the holy light of the spear and Reinhard passively denies any form of superpowers, a special status, barriers and everything else.

Perfect Immortality: Complete and utter inability to ever die. This is typically reserved for omnipotents and cosmic characters who are strong enough that dying isn't exactly high on their list of worries, even if they were capable of it. When he activates Niflheimr Fenriswolf he is faster than omnipresence,yes it sounds stupid but that's how it is." -EG_Sage

Pre-Retcon Molecule Man seemed to be Multiverse or higher as in Multiverse+ or Megaverse.....by what's been stated by him and the writers of marvel.

He hit PR Beyonder with a blast that would destroy billions of dimensions in a single shot.

He repaired a entire multiverse when the beyonder released little "Energy" and SECONDS later Molecule Man repaired it all with a finger swirl.

Molecule Man knowing. (and by writers) that's beyonder was going to erase the entire existence he did the best thing he build a Bubble that would survive the end of existence by using the multiverse energy and beyond the energy be had to do so and the beyonder came by and busted it with a laugh.

PR Molecule Man was causally stated to be Above LT and LT by many was above all things in existence so BY estimate he can beat beings higher than the Megaverse level being LT.

Reinherd takes this handily. The conceptual shenanigans are too much for MM. I mean no comic characters have shown powers anywhere near what Reinherd has shown.

The amazingly fabulous Nazi takes it, MM has no sort of conceptual attacks / defense, which is what Hadou Gods are all about, the conceptual hax will overwhelm MM greatly.

/Thread. The funny thing is that this is actually true.

Reinhard shoves Longinus up Molecule Man's ass and proceeds to convert the rest of Marvel into his legion.

As huge of fan I am of Demonbane I'm gonna go with Molecule Man. Mainly because EDB>> Reinhard and Reinhard's only defense in this fight is conceptual based attack/defense, concepts are something on their own in Marvel, now this is debatable as Death to some is considered to not be a concept at all, however according to Marvel it is, and in a way, that makes it more complicated than the concept of death in Demonbane. Besides LT is also a concept, the whole point of Molecule Man and Beyonder being above him were to show that even complex outer-verse concepts were beneath them.

Also Demonbane never hit above multiversal,put donw the pitch-forks, let me explain, let's look at a good outliner here:

At certain point, they traded attacks in femto second(). At another point, they spent billions years to clash with imposing hits.

At one point, they vibrated dimension through clash of swords. At another time, they destroyed dimension with bombarding shells.

They accelerated, reversed, stopped or decimated flow of cause and effect, destroyed, created countless universes, painted the history over and clashed.

Next---,

Where they reached was beyond super time and super space, at the top of super dimension… super super space time continuum.

At there, Edgar and Al Azif watched.

Infinite universes popped like bubbles.

Inside infinite time loop like chain.

Infinite Demonbane fought, fought, and fought.

They were one of feasible possibilities.

They were one of chosen possibilities.

They were one of lost possibilities.

Infinitely intersecting and circulating like flow of blood, getting at one point. Infinite yet one fate, a part of it, yet entirety.

Entire eternal time, eternity beyond eternity. Infinite eternity chain…

Eternal evil cutting sword, DEMONBANE Athleta Aeternum fought, fought and fought.
also just so you know the final game also points to nothing more than a multiverse, the verse at max is a multiverse with infinite universe busting as the high end feats.
Here are statement from Narrator and Nyarlathotep confirming this:


The verse NEVER hits anything above multiversal. The VN constantly states nothing more than infinite multiverses, and it even state that infinite universes is a part of zathoths dream, also for the klein bottle, it merely holds timelines, so when an attempt at bringing the court fails another attempt could be made.



Script for the final game-again nothing above a multiverse, it even clearly state that the verse only consists of infinite universes and nothing more. EGD is a multiverse buster as it summoned infinite war god demonbanes, each from a different universe and considering the multiverse consists of infinite universes it would make sense.the war god demonbane can destroy infinite universes, but couldnt destroy the multiverse as it consists of an infinite amount of universes as well. This would refer to infinite as immeasurable, which it is, therefore it would make sense to state that WGD did not destroy the multiverse but rather an immeasurable number of universes, as the multiverse consists of an immeasurable number of universes.  

Now I know this is lengthy but stay with me, I'm gonna use another outliner/example- some would claim Azathoth is TOAA, the Creator, the Writer, the Company. The whole shabang. Azathoth takes the story and incinerates it, leaving nothing behind. Except Demonbane. Demonbane could not be removed, destroyed, forgotten, taken out, erased, banned or subsequently eliminated from all that is. Despite Azathoth's efforts to the contrary.

That would be fine if nitro and the whole world agreed to it, that would be fine if it was true, but the problem comes form what a load of crap that is azathoth cant do ANYthing, he cant kill a fly or even a human, you know why? cause he's dreaming it, he wakes up and its gone, he's one of the weakest beings in fiction period.he is NOT TOAA, the writer, the creator or the company, he can be and has been defeated, he is helpless and useless even for his own dream. azathoth hasnt even attempted to defeat demonbane, hence demonbane had to seal him as a fricking stick...

I promise you that there is NO mention of a multiverse/ megaverse or an omniverse in the history of any game, the greatest feat in the series is when they destroy infinite universes.which does not go against the rule of the multiverse.the multiverse is the space which contains an infinity of infinity of infinity and so on, you know what seperates a multiverse from a megaverse or an omniverse? the domain, a new domain/space. the demonbane games have had NO mention of anything aside from infinite universes, nor anything close to suggesting more than that, I promise you that so what does this conclude? azathoth is basically demonbane's Eternity, embodying a multiverse and nothing more. a multiverse only.

Living Tribunal holding two megaverses, and stood no chance to molecule man.



Megaverses again, this guy stood no chance against classic molecule man. "The Omniverse is the collection of every single universe, dimension, etc. This includes the real world (right outside of your window - get outside and check it out!!), but it also includes every single universe, realm, etc., ever mentioned in any of Marvel Comics, as well as any other company. It includes every single literary work, television show, movie, urban legend, universe, realm, etc. ever. It includes everyone from Popeye to Rocky Balboa to Ronald Reagan to Romeo and Juliet to Luke Skywalker to Snoopy to Jay and Silent Bob, etc. EVERYTHING is in the Omniverse, and there is only one Omniverse. Period. Omni - "all"



Yet Cosmic armour superman and dax novu were stated to be above that. And they are still debated to be below or equal to MM.

Show me anything in demonbane coming close to being as sophisticated as that. Ive played the demonbane games relevant to the story, and partially read the manga. Show me proof please. And as for super robot wars, unless that game is explicitly stated by nitro to be canon, you cant use it, and unless that verse was explicitly stated by all the companies to be a multiverse, you cant use the argument. Then again japan doesnt have a term for universe, multiverse, megaverse or omniverse, they best they have is dimensions.  You cannot by no means have an "infinite" night-omnipotent. Omnipotence means infinite. Also if a TOAA level character can't get rid of a nigh-omnipotent then that TOAA level character shouldn't be Omnipotent. MM was insanely powerful more powerful than the LT who is megaversal No one in demonbane is nigh- omnipotent, maybe close to nigh omnipotent, but nothing more.  According to the multiverse theory, there can be an infinity of infinity of infinity occuring....universe within the multiverse, hence the term infinite is generally applied as immeasurable, and not every..........the demonbane verse has never touched upon anything above infinite universes, and frankly thats their best set of feats.

Elder God Demonbane would end have a hard time with this fight, let alone Reinhard or anyone from Dies Ares, and this is coming from a huge fan who played all the games and read the stories.


You also don't NEED conceptual attacks, Nya was fighting and actual contending with pure power, nothing to suggest conceptual attacks, even so, the verse is not multiversal so we can't say that the conceptual attacks would apply to something far above them. I'm not saying the verse is wanked because it's not, but I see people putting them leagues above Love Craft and Dark Tower or Umineko which is not true as well as saying they can soling Marvel and DC. It's not true and most of the time people agreed with Demonbane's placing is because not many people knew of the series, they simply had to go off what others provided rather than read it themselves, same with Dies Ares. Sorry for the book but i wanted it to be as detailed as possible.

Note, Demonbane is leagues above Dies Ares. I had a similar argument for just Reinhard but this kills two birds with one stone.

Reinhard doesn't come from Demonbane. He is from Dies Irae.

EvilMegaCookie wrote:Reinhard doesn't come from Demonbane. He is from Dies Irae.

Demonbane>>Dies Ares, that's why I made the comparrisons. Demonbane is one of the most powerful verses in fiction, if they can't do it Reinhard can't that's why I said EDB would have been a much better fight.

And I thought Marvel had scrapped the whole Omniverse thing due to legal issues. I mean.. come on. Claiming to have all of fiction in your 'verse? What is this, Suggsverse?

I am fine with saying that the 'verse is an infinite multiverse. But omniverse is, in my eyes, slightly different in that it claims to be everything without exception. Even the world we reside in.

Not to mention that The Living Tribunal's supposed power to be second to only TOAA has been debunked by being beaten by The Beyonders.

This is my opinion on the whole LT matter: He SHOULD be the second strongest in Marvel universe. Why? Because he was given this power by TOAA himself if I am not wrong. Not to mention that TOAA supposedly created the whole thing in the first place. If an omnipotent being cannot make the hierarchy solid in the first place, is that being really omnipotent?

Of course, it could just be that LT was given the power necessary to judge the multiverse.

And I am pretty sure Molecule Man would have a tough time facing someone that can erase someone from existence as long as they have a history and face 100 million strong multiversal+ legionnaires that are at the same level as Reinhard.

And from what I remember pre-retcon Molecule Man could only manipulate matter and such to the point that it looked like reality warping. But he has never shown anything like conceptual attacks or defenses. Correct me if I am wrong on this.

Not to mention that the term Megaverse is fairly pointless in my opinion. It is, as others have probably already pointed out, just a fancy way of saying ''BIG MULTIVERSE''. Or a collection of them.

And when you think about it, Reinhard did fight against Mercurius whom is the embodiment of an infinite multiverse. However, in Dies Irae it doesn't really matter what your DC is. Only your desire/law does. Taikyoku value is also a thing but it is completely pointless outside of Dies Irae or KKK due to how it works.

So I simply go with scale or conceptual fuckery as a means to give them worthy opponents.

Living Tribunal, Supreme Entity of the Multiverse. Nuff said.

I hope you're not implying that MM would beat Demonbane or anything..

I'll take an infinite multiverse over a megaverse of unknown size (sounds like an extra big multiverse to me) anyday. Not even Marvel believes that. To them, their Multiverse is literally the next step below Omniverse most of the time.

Agreed^
Reinhard definitely wins IMO, I've never seen any conceptual stuff from MM, feel free to correct me.

From what I remember LT at that point was a lot weaker than how powerful he is today. Unless I really need to brush up my knowledge on him.

EVA_01 wrote:I hope you're not implying that MM would beat Demonbane or anything..

:p look at the post, Demonbane never reach past multiverse, statement from the author,narrator, and Nya confirm this along with feats. I based the whole reason MM beats Reinhard off of him beating Demonbane.

ChaosKnight75 wrote:I'll take an infinite multiverse over a megaverse of unknown size (sounds like an extra big multiverse to me) anyday. Not even Marvel believes that. To them, their Multiverse is literally the next step below Omniverse most of the time.

They are infinite, it doesn't really have a size, and they do have an omniverse, look at the site above, the definition is there and everything. A megaverse also holds bigger infinite multiverses.

You know i can see your IP, right Quatro?

And neither does MM, LT, Beyonder etc. I'll post scans later but I can pull will be implications that it took LT and all the Abstracts billions of years to make the entire Multiverse, LT being the embodiment of the Multiverse only, and the Omniverse (which in the end is redundant) is right after you get past their Multiverse which in turn has been proven to be finite plenty of times. Eating 98% of infinity? Really? Please explain that.