Pre retcon Beyonder vs Battler

Kurohige wrote:Infinity Gauntlet=Gold Truth

Heart of the Universe= Endless 9

Beyonder>>Molecule Man>>Living Tribunal>>Heart Of The Universe>Infinity Gauntlet

At best this is a draw. Conceptual attacks are nothing new to Beyonder, LT is a conceptual being who governs plains with concepts beyond mankind's understanding yet he cannot best MM who was bested by Beyonder. In addition Beyonder exist in a realm above even LT's realm above the Multiverse out of reality and even above that.

1. When did I ever act like conceptul attacks were something new? Never. I'm just saying that you've still shown 0 proof that Beyonder could do anything to even survive Golden Key.

2. Both Endless 9 and Golden Key are waaay above IG and HoTH. You can't just equalize Battler's powers with two powers that Beyonder is already above, just because you want to.

3. How is Beyonder going to avoid getting blitzed? How is he going to get pas Endless 9? How is he going to do anything against Golden Key?

Kurohige wrote:Infinity Gauntlet=Gold Truth

Heart of the Universe= Endless 9

Beyonder>>Molecule Man>>Living Tribunal>>Heart Of The Universe>Infinity Gauntlet

At best this is a draw. Conceptual attacks are nothing new to Beyonder, LT is a conceptual being who governs plains with concepts beyond mankind's understanding yet he cannot best MM who was bested by Beyonder. In addition Beyonder exist in a realm above even LT's realm above the Multiverse out of reality and even above that.

You're making false comparisons here.
HotU and IG have shown no where near the same traits as Gold Truth or Endless 9. IG gives the user control over the universe, and HotU gives the user control over the multiverse. It has shown no conceptual abilities whatsoever. All it's doing is increasing firepower. No matter how much firepower you add on, you can't match conceptual abilities unless you have displayed conceptual abilities of your own.

No one on your list has shown conceptual abilities on the level of Battler period.
How is the Living Tribunal above HotU? The HotU beat the Living Tribunal.

Chef_Banchou wrote:
1. When did I ever act like conceptul attacks were something new? Never. I'm just saying that you've still shown 0 proof that Beyonder could do anything to even survive Golden Key.

2. Both Endless 9 and Golden Key are waaay above IG and HoTH. You can't just equalize Battler's powers with two powers that Beyonder is already above, just because you want to.

3. How is Beyonder going to avoid getting blitzed? How is he going to get pas Endless 9? How is he going to do anything against Golden Key?

1. The way you guys kept bringing it up like it's something Beyonder never dealt with despite beating LT who is a cocnept created by TOAA and is a being who governs concepts beyond the understanding of mandkind. He is able to affect and even instill fear into multiversal concept beyond mandkind.

2. IG grants limitless control over time,space,soul, mind, and power, HOTU basically makes you TOAA or right below him, despite having limitless control LT boosted it's ability. Why would Golden Key or Endless 9 do anything to a being that has already dealt with concepts higher than the understanding of mandkind or anything battler has displayed, to my knowledge the understanding of pain was something almost unheard of to characters around his level, LT governs concepts mandkind could not even conceive. And infinitely strong shield does not mean much when Beyonder, again, is stronger than the concepts they don't even understand. I'm not placing Beyonder above them because I want to, I placing him above because this is nothing Beyonder has not dealt with.

3. Blitz the Beyonder? Someone who went against LT who constantly exist everywhere within the infinite multiverse? Who is above the IG which has limitless control of space and time? The guy who is the one and the many, the nothing and the all, the all that has been and all that will be? How exactly is he going to blitz him? He bypasses Endless 9 because he was casually above LT who is a higher level concept than anything mandkind can conceive. That fact alone means his conceptual attacks are above Endless 9, or at the very least can harm concepts without the need to actually manipulate them. Golden Key erases fictional being, why should Beyonder fall under that category? He shuts down beings that control reality all the time. Beyonder has been erased before like when he depowered himself and Doom took his power and he was erased, but Beyonder still existed on a higher dimension than the multiverse and was able to come back and take his powers. You can't just call NLF and say it will work on Beyonder just because you say so.

dhalsim wrote:You're making false comparisons here.
HotU and IG have shown no where near the same traits as Gold Truth or Endless 9. IG gives the user control over the universe, and HotU gives the user control over the multiverse. It has shown no conceptual abilities whatsoever. All it's doing is increasing firepower. No matter how much firepower you add on, you can't match conceptual abilities unless you have displayed conceptual abilities of your own.

No one on your list has shown conceptual abilities on the level of Battler period.
How is the Living Tribunal above HotU? The HotU beat the Living Tribunal.

HOTU literally makes you second ONLY to TOAA, to best it you HAVE to be TOAA. Also if you literally control every aspect of the multiverse or universe concepts are no different, yes he can turn space into marshmellows but he can't get rid of color? That makes no sense. It's not increasing fire power, it is giving absolute control overt he universe, HOTU makes you the TOAA beneath TOAA.

LT itself is a concept created by TOAA who exist everywhere and nowhere in the infinite multiverse and also governs a dimension beyond the multiverse (Which already has it's own infinite dimensions) which holds concepts beyond the understanding of mandkind, Beyonder is above him in every regard, even where Beyonder lives is beyond LT's realm. Concepts like remembering pain were something agonizing and almost forgotten by some, yet you are going to convince me that they can conceive concepts never imagined by mandkind? You can state whatever you want but simply besting a being like LT blows any kind of concept manipulation out the water, period.

Also HOTU did not beat LT. Thanos dismissed the Living Tribunal of his universe using HOTU. LT exists in every universe of the multiverse. There were still an infinite number of LT avatars running around doing LT things after Thanos defeated the one in his. At any rate I was mistaken in another regard, HOTU it basically TOAA or at least his power, that is why LT could not do anything, in fact when Thanos erased the multiverse (except the cosmic anchor points - which is why Death and Adam were spared. There are a few cosmic anchor points; dimensions connected to but separate from the Mutiverse - White Hot Room, Death's Domain, Ateleza's Realm, The Crystal Palace to name the most known). Places were spared from destruction not because they could not be destroyed, but because their representations were not there challenging Thanos - out of sight out of mind. It was done that way on purpose by TOAA, And it was guarded in stealth - which is why Thanos had such problem tracking it down until the Pharaoh started using the power. The heart of the universe was just a tool used by TOAA to get thanos to fix a problem in the universe. He manipulated Thanos into doing the right thing. one above all is god the only thing that can match him is other interpretations of god. The one above all created the heart of the universe since he created the marvel omniverse. One-Above-All is just that ABOVE ALL and EVERYTHING.

One-Above-All >Beyonder>= Thanos w/ Heat of the Infinite > Living Tribunal > Thanos w/ Infinite Gaunlet > Everything else.

Battler ain't winning this with Endless 9 or Golden key regardless. At this point the debate is going around in circles, it's obvious both of you are gonna stick to your guns and I'm sticking with mine since I believe that beating higher level concepts who govern other higher level concepts is above someone he can simply erase concepts like death and pain. Your only retort is using Beyonder's lowball feat or the thing with Death or simply saying he didn't use the same kind of conceptual manipulation as Battler so he can't manipulate concepts.

This fight=Beyonder wins or a tie

Anyone above that vs TOAA be it demonbane or anything stronger=draw automatically.

Don't get me wrong I'm still up for debate but E9 and Golden Key are the only arguments I'm seeing and we have kinda being going in circles as it's obvious our interpretations of conceptual attacks and feats are different. I mean Beyonder is already above Like Eternity, Lord Chaos and Master Order, and Infinity, who are all concepts that are sentient, Battler can erase death but Death in Marvel to my knowledge has much better showings than Death in Umnieko as is has a form and conscious. It is not simply...something.

I'm entitled also to either go with Beyonder or a tie.
I dunno both of you bring good points but Endless 9 and Golden Key don't seem all that impressive and aren't really stomping Beyonder so to speak who scared LT a conceptual being as stated here.
It truthfully sounds like NLF you can't assume because it defeated something in that verse that their isn't anything above it that can tank it or just won't care for its effects at all.
This is almost the same as NK vs Battler too many gray areas.
Tie or this just keeps going in circles.

Kurohige wrote:

Chef_Banchou wrote:
1. When did I ever act like conceptul attacks were something new? Never. I'm just saying that you've still shown 0 proof that Beyonder could do anything to even survive Golden Key.

2. Both Endless 9 and Golden Key are waaay above IG and HoTH. You can't just equalize Battler's powers with two powers that Beyonder is already above, just because you want to.

3. How is Beyonder going to avoid getting blitzed? How is he going to get pas Endless 9? How is he going to do anything against Golden Key?

1. The way you guys kept bringing it up like it's something Beyonder never dealt with despite beating LT who is a cocnept created by TOAA and is a being who governs concepts beyond the understanding of mandkind. He is able to affect and even instill fear into multiversal concept beyond mandkind.

2. IG grants limitless control over time,space,soul, mind, and power, HOTU basically makes you TOAA or right below him, despite having limitless control LT boosted it's ability. Why would Golden Key or Endless 9 do anything to a being that has already dealt with concepts higher than the understanding of mandkind or anything battler has displayed, to my knowledge the understanding of pain was something almost unheard of to characters around his level, LT governs concepts mandkind could not even conceive. And infinitely strong shield does not mean much when Beyonder, again, is stronger than the concepts they don't even understand.  I'm not placing Beyonder above them because I want to, I placing him above because this is nothing Beyonder has not dealt with.

3. Blitz the Beyonder? Someone who went against LT who constantly exist everywhere within the infinite multiverse? Who is above the IG which has limitless control of space and time? The guy who is the one and the many, the nothing and the all, the all that has been and all that will be? How exactly is he going to blitz him? He bypasses Endless 9 because he was casually above LT who is a higher level concept than anything mandkind can conceive. That fact alone means his conceptual attacks are above Endless 9, or at the very least can harm concepts without the need to actually manipulate them.  Golden Key erases fictional being, why should Beyonder fall under that category? He shuts down beings that control reality all the time. Beyonder has been erased before like when he depowered himself and Doom took his power and he was erased, but Beyonder still existed on a higher dimension than the multiverse and was able to come back and take his powers. You can't just call NLF and say it will work on Beyonder just because you say so.

dhalsim wrote:You're making false comparisons here.
HotU and IG have shown no where near the same traits as Gold Truth or Endless 9. IG gives the user control over the universe, and HotU gives the user control over the multiverse. It has shown no conceptual abilities whatsoever. All it's doing is increasing firepower. No matter how much firepower you add on, you can't match conceptual abilities unless you have displayed conceptual abilities of your own.

No one on your list has shown conceptual abilities on the level of Battler period.
How is the Living Tribunal above HotU? The HotU beat the Living Tribunal.

HOTU literally makes you second ONLY to TOAA, to best it you HAVE to be TOAA. Also if you literally control every aspect of the multiverse or universe concepts are no different, yes he can turn space into marshmellows but he can't get rid of color? That makes no sense. It's not increasing fire power, it is giving absolute control overt he universe, HOTU makes you the TOAA beneath TOAA.

LT itself is a concept created by TOAA who exist everywhere and nowhere in the infinite multiverse and also governs a dimension beyond the multiverse (Which already has it's own infinite dimensions) which holds concepts beyond the understanding of mandkind, Beyonder is above him in every regard, even where Beyonder lives is beyond LT's realm. Concepts like remembering pain were something agonizing and almost forgotten by some, yet you are going to convince me that they can conceive concepts never imagined by mandkind? You can state whatever you want but simply besting a being like LT blows any kind of concept manipulation out the water, period.

Also HOTU did not beat LT. Thanos dismissed the Living Tribunal of his universe using HOTU.  LT exists in every universe of the multiverse.  There were still an infinite number of LT avatars running around doing LT things after Thanos defeated the one in his. At any rate I was mistaken in another regard, HOTU it basically TOAA or at least his power, that is why LT could not do anything, in fact when Thanos erased the multiverse  (except the cosmic anchor points - which is why Death and Adam were spared. There are a few cosmic anchor points; dimensions connected to but separate from the Mutiverse - White Hot Room, Death's Domain, Ateleza's Realm, The Crystal Palace to name the most known). Places were spared from destruction not because they could not be destroyed, but because their representations were not there challenging Thanos - out of sight out of mind. It was done that way on purpose by TOAA, And it was guarded in stealth - which is why Thanos had such problem tracking it down until the Pharaoh started using the power. The heart of the universe was just a tool used by TOAA to get thanos to fix a problem in the universe. He manipulated Thanos into doing the right thing. one above all is god the only thing that can match him is other interpretations of god. The one above all created the heart of the universe since he created the marvel omniverse. One-Above-All is just that ABOVE ALL and EVERYTHING.

One-Above-All >Beyonder>= Thanos w/ Heat of the Infinite > Living Tribunal > Thanos w/ Infinite Gaunlet > Everything else.

Battler ain't winning this with Endless 9 or Golden key regardless. At this point the debate is going around in circles, it's obvious both of you are gonna stick to your guns and I'm sticking with mine since I believe that beating higher level concepts who govern other higher level concepts is above someone he can simply erase concepts like death and pain. Your only retort is using Beyonder's lowball feat or the thing with Death or simply saying he didn't use the same kind of conceptual manipulation as Battler so he can't manipulate concepts.

This fight=Beyonder wins or a tie

Anyone above that vs TOAA be it demonbane or anything stronger=draw automatically.

Don't get me wrong I'm still up for debate but E9 and Golden Key are the only arguments I'm seeing and we have kinda being going in circles as it's obvious our interpretations of conceptual attacks and feats are different. I mean Beyonder is already above Like Eternity, Lord Chaos and Master Order, and Infinity, who are all concepts that are sentient, Battler can erase death but Death in Marvel to my knowledge has much better showings than Death in Umnieko as is has a form and conscious. It is not simply...something.

LT isn't a conceptual entity. He got killed by generic energy blasts. Nothing conceptual about that.
Being second to TOAA doesn't mean much. HotU is stronger than everyone in Marvel aside from TOAA, but Marvel isn't that powerful a verse anyways. HotU's best feat is beating LT, so anyone who can beat people who can beat LT like beings would be above it. Battler beat Bernkastel and Lambdadelta, each of whom could floor LT.

Again you fail to understand, all Beyonder has is more firepower than the rest of Marvel. This isn't an issue of firepower at all. This has to deal with conceptual abilities. Yes he beat conceptual entities like that, but that's far from actual conceptual attacks. Marvel is just a verse where conceptual entities can be destroyed with enough firepower. Unfortunately in Umineko, enough firepower alone isn't enough to get past their metafictional shenanigans.

Yeah, I think I'm wasting my time, you just said LT was not a conceptual entity, flat out denying what he was created for and by. Just because you say so? That is such a one-sided argument. That's like me saying Bernkastel isn't strong because she was harmed by a punch. You can't just change a character's origin and being because it doe snot fit your description, this is literally the most ridiculous and one-sided argument I have had to endure in a long time. HOTU is second ONLY to TOAA, as in everything. Marvel is not that powerful of a verse? Okay, keep lowballing. The only being above LT are Beyonder, and HOTU Thanos, which Bernkastel and Lambdadelta are not since they would have to be equal to TOAA which they are not since that is something that can't happen.

So, Beyonder can destroy conceptual beings beyond what anyone in Umnieko can even understand...but he can't get past a conceptual based attack like E9 and Gold Key? He already proved he can harm and kill greater concepts. You are just nitpicking the method, just because Battler must do it a certain way doesn't mean Beyonder has to.

You are just taking away concepts from Marvel to help your argument, that's not fair, it's bad debating.

Your argument boils down to: Beyonder destroyed and is stronger than concepts beyond anything in Umnieko, but can't destroy lower conceptual defenses because he does it a different way than in Umnieko. Umnieko is not some unbeatable unparalleled verse. Beyonder has done more than enough to get past Endless 9 or Golden Key, but yeah go ahead and deny it based off bias viewings. Maybe Beyonder's power is so great it can destroy concepts? It doesn't have to be one way, not everything needs to work the same way it does in one Universe. I was even willing to let the whole argument that Magic in Umnieko should apply to Marvel despite obvious differences but not if you continuously lowball another series just to prove your point. Marvel is not a weak verse by any regard considering TOAA would tie with the most powerful character in Demonbane and likely beat Unmieko is Battler is not the strongest. But like I said youa re never gonna change your mind regardless, but if that's the case just say so, don't lowball other verses.

Kurohige wrote:Yeah, i think I'm wasting my time, you just said LT was not a conceptual entity, flat out denying what he was created for and by. Just because you say so? That is such a one-sided argument. That's like me saying Bernkastel isn't strong because she was harmed by a punch. You can't just change a character's origin and being because it doe snot fit your description, this is literally the most ridiculous and one-sided argument I have had to endure in a long time. HOTU is second ONLY to TOAA, as in everything. Marvel is not that powerful of a verse? Okay, keep lowballing. The only being above LT are Beyonder, and HOTU Thanos, which Bernkastel and Lambdadelta are not since they would have to be equal to TOAA which they are not since that is something that can't happen.

So, Beyonder can destroy conceptual beings beyond what anyone in Umnieko can even understand...but he can't get past a conceptual based attack like E9 and Gold Key? He already proved he can harm and kill greater concepts. You are just nitpicking the method, just because Battler must do it a certain way doesn't mean Beyonder has to.

You are just taking away concepts from Marvel to help your argument, that's not fair, it's bad debating.

Your argument boils down to: Beyonder destroyed and is stronger than concepts beyond anything in Umnieko, but can't destroy lower conceptual dfenses because he does it a different way than in Umnieko. Umnieko is not some unbeatable unparalleled verse. Beyonder has done more than enough to get past Endless 9 or Golden Key, but yeah go ahead and deny it based off bias viewings.

1. What makes you so sure that no one in Umineko could not understand one of those concepts? That's double standards, your assuming as well. :/

2. No, he hasn't. Tell me exactly how he would get past Endless 9, or counter Golden Key, then show me proof. Because essentially all you keep saying is "because he can", and that's not going to cut it.

3. What Dhalism meant was that conceptual entities in Marvel aren't the same as actual concepts, due to them being hurt by simple energy blasts and whatnot. And personally, I agree; they might be said to embody concepts, but they can be hurt by conventional attacks such as energy beams, so that lowers their impressiviness factor quite a lot.

Gio Gio wrote:I'm entitled also to either go with Beyonder or a tie.
I dunno both of you bring good points but Endless 9 and Golden Key don't seem all that impressive and aren't really stomping Beyonder so to speak who scared LT a conceptual being as stated here.
It truthfully sounds like NLF you can't assume because it defeated something in that verse that their isn't anything above it that can tank it or just won't care for its effects at all.
This is almost the same as NK vs Battler too many gray areas.
Tie or this just keeps going in circles.

I wouldn't bother at this point, he just said the Conceptual Entity known as Living Tribunal was no a concept at all, I guess he works for Marvel and got Stan Lee's seal of approval. The bias against marvel is outstanding. So I guess it's gonna be one of those agree to disagree scenarios. Dissapointing but just like Animevice nobody ever changes their opinion with the exception of Taichokage.

Like I said before man LT is a concept above concepts denying that is fanboyism no offense.
As iv'e said this is a stalemate and you'd need to prove characters from Umineko can understand a concept above a concept. All you've said is they can destroy concepts now what if that concept is above concepts like LT? And if Beyonder destroyed said concept then its only fair that he'd be able to tank whatever battler had to dish out.
This is either a stalemate or agree to disagree. I'm not taking sides or anything as both have good points but with everything brought up stalemate is plausible.

Kurohige wrote:

Gio Gio wrote:I'm entitled also to either go with Beyonder or a tie.
I dunno both of you bring good points but Endless 9 and Golden Key don't seem all that impressive and aren't really stomping Beyonder so to speak who scared LT a conceptual being as stated here.
It truthfully sounds like NLF you can't assume because it defeated something in that verse that their isn't anything above it that can tank it or just won't care for its effects at all.
This is almost the same as NK vs Battler too many gray areas.
Tie or this just keeps going in circles.

I wouldn't bother at this point, he just said the Conceptual Entity known as Living Tribunal was no a concept at all, I guess he works for Marvel and got Stan Lee's seal of approval. The bias against marvel is outstanding. So I guess it's gonna be one of those agree to disagree scenarios. Dissapointing but just like Animevice nobody ever changes their opinion with the exception of Taichokage.

Your getting quite close to being offensive. Just because someome doesn't switch sides in a debate, doesn't mean that they don't change their opinion. When I first came into this thread, I thought Battler would stomp Beyonder. But because of the feats you listed, I now believe that it would be a much tougher fight for him. You can't just claim that no one changes their view on things, as if they are stubborn headed. I find that quite rude.

Gentlemen please no need to go at eachothers throats can we agree on a stalemate or what?
Both have exceptional feats.

Chef_Banchou wrote:1. What makes you so sure that no one in Umineko could not understand one of those concepts? That's double standards, your assuming as well. :/

2. No, he hasn't. Tell me exactly how he would get past Endless 9, or counter Golden Key, then show me proof. Because essentially all you keep saying is "because he can", and that's not going to cut it.

3. What Dhalism meant was that conceptual entities in Marvel aren't the same as actual concepts, due to them being hurt by simple energy blasts and whatnot. And personally, I agree; they might be said to embody concepts, but they can be hurt by conventional attacks such as energy beams, so that lowers their impressiviness factor quite a lot.

Wow, this is going nowhere fast, this will be one of my last few post here, but let me start by saying this is some double standards going on your part.

1. Because they never shown the ability to, pain was an agonizing concept, something that had Benkastel rolling on the floor, yet they can take and understand concepts beyond mandkind? Mankind's concepts had her on the floor. Beyonder actually exist on a higher plain than LT and his concepts. You and Dhalism go on and talk about how how there is no way Beyonder cna get past Battler's E9 or Golden key because he never dealt with anything like it (Despite the contrary) yet they can deal with concepts beyond mankind because we don't know if they can or not? Come on, man.

2. Because Living Tirbunal, created by TOAA, is a conceptual being, this conceptual being, is everything within the multiverse, pain, anger, color, ect. he is a concept. he reings over a higher plain outside the infinite multiverse that hold higher level concepts beyond the understanding of mankind. Beyonder is above him and has bested him in battle. Endless 9 and Golden key are high level conceptual attack/defenses, Beyonder defeats beings beyond mandkind's cocnepts, Battler and all of Umnieko ahs only displayed contorl and weakness within the concepts of mandkind (Pain, fear, space, time ect.) I'm not saiyng because he can, it's because he is stronger than those people. MM had LT in fear, Beyonder beat MM and shrugged off his attacks.

3. That's entirley your opinion, and I know you are going to agree with him, no need to specify. The fact is, they are higher level concepts, Umnieko is written by Japanese authors while Marvel is written mainly by Americans, they have different ways of showing the same things, they are hurt by beings that rule over the multiverse that grow so big the infinite multivers or dimensions cannot contain him, yet his method of destroying entities is questioned because he did it differently than those in Umnieko. Bull.

Like I said you are going to stick to your guns are we both know you wont change your mind regardless.

Chef_Banchou wrote:

Kurohige wrote:

Gio Gio wrote:I'm entitled also to either go with Beyonder or a tie.
I dunno both of you bring good points but Endless 9 and Golden Key don't seem all that impressive and aren't really stomping Beyonder so to speak who scared LT a conceptual being as stated here.
It truthfully sounds like NLF you can't assume because it defeated something in that verse that their isn't anything above it that can tank it or just won't care for its effects at all.
This is almost the same as NK vs Battler too many gray areas.
Tie or this just keeps going in circles.

I wouldn't bother at this point, he just said the Conceptual Entity known as Living Tribunal was no a concept at all, I guess he works for Marvel and got Stan Lee's seal of approval. The bias against marvel is outstanding. So I guess it's gonna be one of those agree to disagree scenarios. Dissapointing but just like Animevice nobody ever changes their opinion with the exception of Taichokage.

Your getting quite close to being offensive. Just because someome doesn't switch sides in a debate, doesn't mean that they don't change their opinion. When I first came into this thread, I thought Battler would stomp Beyonder. But because of the feats you listed, I now believe that it would be a much tougher fight for him. You can't just claim that no one changes their view on things, as if they are stubborn headed. I find that quite rude.

When somebody comes into a straight up says Marvel is weak and then starts denying character origins, feats, ect. That's when it gets annoying, it's disrespectful and bad debating. I'm not insulting D. as a person, but the method in which he is choosing to debate. I'm not saying he is not switching sides due to my arguments, but because regardless of what I say it comes down to him not acknowledging Beyonder's feats because they were not done the same way Umnieko characters did them. In Animevice people would flat out be proven wrong, and then fall back on "Well agree to disagree" since they wont ever admit when they are wrong. I apologize if it came off as rude, but when I'm debating and giving courtesies to one series and letting certain things pass (Like magic's description in Uminieko apply to marvel) I expect the same in return. If someone is lowballing or debating unfairly they should be called out on it IMO. But again I'm sorry if it seemed like I was insulting anyone personally.

Gio Gio wrote:Gentlemen please no need to go at eachothers throats can we agree on a stalemate or what?
Both have exceptional feats.

Eh, sorry, threads involving entities tend to get heated just because it involves a lot of things including people's own interpretations on conceptual beings and all powerful characters.

I understand you as well as I know. I debate NK up and down it will get heated but yes the method of trying to call him weak is somewhat of a bad thing but as long as we can keep it in debating and not insulting eachother its fine

Kurohige wrote:

Chef_Banchou wrote:1. What makes you so sure that no one in Umineko could not understand one of those concepts? That's double standards, your assuming as well. :/

2. No, he hasn't. Tell me exactly how he would get past Endless 9, or counter Golden Key, then show me proof. Because essentially all you keep saying is "because he can", and that's not going to cut it.

3. What Dhalism meant was that conceptual entities in Marvel aren't the same as actual concepts, due to them being hurt by simple energy blasts and whatnot. And personally, I agree; they might be said to embody concepts, but they can be hurt by conventional attacks such as energy beams, so that lowers their impressiviness factor quite a lot.

Wow, this is going nowhere fast, this will be one of my last few post here, but let me start by saying this is some double standards going on your part.

1. Because they never shown the ability to, pain was an agonizing concept, something that had Benkastel rolling on the floor, yet they can take and understand concepts beyond mandkind? Mankind's concepts had her on the floor. Beyonder actually exist on a higher plain than LT and his concepts. You and Dhalism go on and talk about how how there is no way Beyonder cna get past Battler's E9 or Golden key because he never dealt with anything like it (Despite the contrary) yet they can deal with concepts beyond mankind because we don't know if they can or not? Come on, man.

2. Because Living Tirbunal, created by TOAA, is a conceptual being, this conceptual being, is everything within the multiverse, pain, anger, color, ect. he is a concept. he reings over a higher plain outside the infinite multiverse that hold higher level concepts beyond the understanding of mankind. Beyonder is above him and has bested him in battle. Endless 9 and Golden key are high level conceptual attack/defenses, Beyonder defeats beings beyond mandkind's cocnepts, Battler and all of Umnieko ahs only displayed contorl and weakness within the concepts of mandkind (Pain, fear, space, time ect.) I'm not saiyng because he can, it's because he is stronger than those people. MM had LT in fear, Beyonder beat MM and shrugged off his attacks.

3. That's entirley your opinion, and I know you are going to agree with him, no need to specify. The fact is, they are higher level concepts, Umnieko is written by Japanese authors while Marvel is written mainly by Americans, they have different ways of showing the same things, they are hurt by beings that rule over the multiverse that grow so big the infinite multivers or dimensions cannot contain him, yet his method of destroying entities is questioned because he did it differently than those in Umnieko. Bull.

Like I said you are going to stick to your guns are we both know you wont change your mind regardless.

I'm not doing double standards. When did I do such a thing?

And, despite what you say, Beyonder really never has dealt with anything like Endless 9 or Golden Key. He's dealt with concepts, that much is obvious, but nothing like what Battler is capable of. Endless 9 doesn't just negate magic, but literally any fictional attack at all. To my knowledge, nothing of the sort has ever been shown in Marvel. Also, again, he can't dodge it, he can't block it, he can't stop it, he can't even slow it down. So how, I ask, would Beyonder be doing anything about Golden Key?

Furthermore, I understand that LT is a concept. However, because he was shown to have been harmed by simple energy blasts, proves that Beyonder beat him with power alone, no conceptual abilities involved. And about that "concepts beyond human understanding" thing, its sort of inapplicable here, as we have no idea what those concepts entailed or how powerful they were. Just because they are incomprehensible to humans in Marvel, doesn't mean that Battler or any of the Umineko witches would be amazed by it. True, Bern was a mess at feeling the concept of pain. But can you prove that such a concept is impossible for Beyonder to feel? Because I'm pretty sure he's felt pain before.

He has dealt with higher level concepts than anything in Umnieko has shown knowledge of, magic, fiction ect. are all clear differences in Umnieko, the Beyonder is literally only second to TOAA. The very fundamental part about his character was being invincible, omnipotent. He has not and can not be defeated. Anything and everything is his imagination


While they are character statements, they've been stated multiple times by:
The Beyonder himself
Other characters aside from the Beyonder
The Narrator
Statements made by the writers
This isn't a one time thing.
Pre-Recton Beyonder, written by Jim Shooter, was never defeated, which backs up his statements. At the time, there was no conceivable being able to match him. He was meant to be who he was meant to be. He conquered everything with a thought, had the power to erase the multiverse with a thought. The multiversal and cosmic abstracts dared not interfere with what the Beyonder wanted to do. He was the closest thing to TOAA before the actual establishment of TOAA later on.
As for LT all of the following scans stating LT's power and authority are either during Secret Wars or before.


"And there be more than one universe and 'tis said that a being, called the Living Tribunal—the final judge—hath the power to enforce his will 'pon any cosmos he doth judge! And 'tis said his power is supreme in all the Multiverse. Even I, son of one of the mightiest of all gods, find it impossible to conceive of such levels of power!"
My responsibility extends far beyond this one universe. I am the supreme judiciary for the entire continuum of universes -- the multiverse itself." "Since the prime divergence, it has been my function to uphold laws of the multiverse in order to safeguard the sanctity of life throughout the continuum of universes."
Not to mention, Pre-Recton Beyonder was already the TOAA of his own multiverse when he arrived to Marvel. The only reason he isn't as powerful as the current TOAA is because the current TOAA established is the writer themselves within the actual comic. Meaning that no matter how powerful a fictional character you are like PR-Beyonder, the writer will always infinitely surpass you. Aside from characters who are the writers in the comics (TOAA/Fulcrum) I'd honestly say Pre-Recton Beyonder is the strongest purely fictional character in the history of Marvel.

In addition It actually turns out that the Beyonder rectonned himself the whole time (not the writers) because he simply could.

But the writers did describe the Pre-Recton Beyonder as basically TOAA in interviews/writer statements. He was TOAA of his own multiverse, no doubt, but he was the closest thing IMO in Marvel to TOAA


in Marvel that could defeat someone who was millions of times more powerful than the Marvel multiverse and everything within it combined?

LT, who has multiversal feats as well was stated to be a microbe to the Beyonder. Quite a bit of LT's power/authority are statements from narrator's, characters, and LT himself, but that doesn't IMO make it any less valid. Based off of his feats there is no reason to doubt so. Same goes for the Beyonder.

Beyonder must literally allow himself to feel, or do anything, it's all under his controll. Yous ay the concepts above mankind is not usable, yet NLF like Endless 9 and Golden key are? They never worked on anyone as powerful as Beyonder. Beyonder doe snot use fictional magic, what he uses is his reality. LT is still a cocnept, yet Beyonder still beat him, that is a feat for Beyonder, not a lowball for LT. That is also proof Beyonder doe snot need concept based attacks to get passed Endless 9, he beat far stronger concepts with power alone, that is the kind of character Beyonder is.

Beyonder also easily beat MM:



"I transact on power levels unimagin-able to you,captain america,and the beyonder it seems on levels un-imaginable to me"
MM>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>LT

So,yeah,beyonder not beat LT,but beat MM,who much more powerful than LT

That was best feats on marvel,Even HOTU only beat LT

"The living tribunal's only superior is the One-Above-All" Beyonder>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>MM>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>LT Beyonder limited himself greatly:

"So omnipotent is he--but he senses that his new neighbors are the type who take life at a slow and easy pace,so he takes his time,he intends to be here for a long while and he wants to fit it"

He could erase the universe with a thought"

"Yet he limits himself"

"I am limiting them,trying to keep them in scale with your fascinating world"
I'd never limited my powers..I'd never have guessed how difficult something primitive as combat can be"

Beyonder is fear to LT. Beyonder is beyond existence even before he took physical form. Endless 9 is not affecting soemone as great as Beyonder, it's NLF to say it could. the very reason he's called the Beyonder is because the character itself was beyond time, space, and and the reality (Marvel multiverse) that was known.

Even the Living Tribunal was beyond Time and Space as well, Elder God Dmeonbane would be a better fight as it would be an actual tie (As discussed on many threads on the net) I just don't see Battler winning with E9 based ont he fact that Beyonder is simply beyond him.

Kurohige wrote:He has dealt with higher level concepts than anything in Umnieko has shown knowledge of, magic, fiction ect. are all clear differences in Umnieko, the Beyonder is literally only second to TOAA. The very fundamental part about his character was being invincible, omnipotent. He has not and can not be defeated. Anything and everything is his imagination


While they are character statements, they've been stated multiple times by:
The Beyonder himself
Other characters aside from the Beyonder
The Narrator
Statements made by the writers
This isn't a one time thing.
Pre-Recton Beyonder, written by Jim Shooter, was never defeated, which backs up his statements. At the time, there was no conceivable being able to match him. He was meant to be who he was meant to be. He conquered everything with a thought, had the power to erase the multiverse with a thought. The multiversal and cosmic abstracts dared not interfere with what the Beyonder wanted to do. He was the closest thing to TOAA before the actual establishment of TOAA later on.
As for LT all of the following scans stating LT's power and authority are either during Secret Wars or before.


"And there be more than one universe and 'tis said that a being, called the Living Tribunal—the final judge—hath the power to enforce his will 'pon any cosmos he doth judge! And 'tis said his power is supreme in all the Multiverse. Even I, son of one of the mightiest of all gods, find it impossible to conceive of such levels of power!"
My responsibility extends far beyond this one universe. I am the supreme judiciary for the entire continuum of universes -- the multiverse itself." "Since the prime divergence, it has been my function to uphold laws of the multiverse in order to safeguard the sanctity of life throughout the continuum of universes."
Not to mention, Pre-Recton Beyonder was already the TOAA of his own multiverse when he arrived to Marvel. The only reason he isn't as powerful as the current TOAA is because the current TOAA established is the writer themselves within the actual comic. Meaning that no matter how powerful a fictional character you are like PR-Beyonder, the writer will always infinitely surpass you. Aside from characters who are the writers in the comics (TOAA/Fulcrum) I'd honestly say Pre-Recton Beyonder is the strongest purely fictional character in the history of Marvel.

In addition It actually turns out that the Beyonder rectonned himself the whole time (not the writers) because he simply could.

But the writers did describe the Pre-Recton Beyonder as basically TOAA in interviews/writer statements. He was TOAA of his own multiverse, no doubt, but he was the closest thing IMO in Marvel to TOAA


in Marvel that could defeat someone who was millions of times more powerful than the Marvel multiverse and everything within it combined?

LT, who has multiversal feats as well was stated to be a microbe to the Beyonder. Quite a bit of LT's power/authority are statements from narrator's, characters, and LT himself, but that doesn't IMO make it any less valid. Based off of his feats there is no reason to doubt so. Same goes for the Beyonder.

Beyonder must literally allow himself to feel, or do anything, it's all under his controll. Yous ay the concepts above mankind is not usable, yet NLF like Endless 9 and Golden key are? They never worked on anyone as powerful as Beyonder. Beyonder doe snot use fictional magic, what he uses is his reality. LT is still a cocnept, yet Beyonder still beat him, that is a feat for Beyonder, not a lowball for LT. That is also proof Beyonder doe snot need concept based attacks to get passed Endless 9, he beat far stronger concepts with power alone, that is the kind of character Beyonder is.

Beyonder also easily beat MM:



"I transact on power levels unimagin-able to you,captain america,and the beyonder it seems on levels un-imaginable to me"
MM>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>LT

So,yeah,beyonder not beat LT,but beat MM,who much more powerful than LT

That was best feats on marvel,Even HOTU only beat LT

"The living tribunal's only superior is the One-Above-All"  Beyonder>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>MM>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>LT  Beyonder limited himself greatly:

"So omnipotent is he--but he senses that his new neighbors are the type who take life at a slow and easy pace,so he takes his time,he intends to be here for a long while and he wants to fit it"

He could erase the universe with a thought"

"Yet he limits himself"

"I am limiting them,trying to keep them in scale with your fascinating world"
I'd never limited my powers..I'd never have guessed how difficult something primitive as combat can be"

Beyonder is fear to LT. Beyonder is beyond existence even before he took physical form. Endless 9 is not affecting soemone as great as Beyonder, it's NLF to say it could. the very reason he's called the Beyonder is because the character itself was beyond time, space, and and the reality (Marvel multiverse) that was known.

Even the Living Tribunal was beyond Time and Space as well, Elder God Dmeonbane would be a better fight as it would be an actual tie (As discussed on many threads on the net) I just don't see Battler winning with E9 based ont he fact that Beyonder is simply beyond him.

You can't just say that Beyonder is above Battler, simply because he's the strongest in his own verse. By that logic, Tian from Feng Shen Ji could beat Galactus. Beyonder is still affected by concepts, there's no denying that. And the fact that he had to go through some hands on task of putting energy inyo a cup, forcing Lady Death to drink it, and still having trouble bringing Death back afterwords, proves that he's not the master of concepts as you claim him to be.

And once again, that is wrong. It is not a fact to anyone but you. Beyonder is not above Battler, bacause I still have yet to see a way he can get past E9 or counter Golden Key. Endless 9 would, in fact, work on anything Beyonder throws at him, because it doesn't matter if its something new or unimaginable to Battler, as long as its supernatural, fictional, imposdible, mystical, magical or whatever you want to describe it as, IT WILL BE NEGATED BY ENDLESS 9!!!

Look, its not NLF, because, as I've said before, only concepts can bypass it. Other than omnipotence, that's all. So, unless Beyonder can make an extremely powerful conceptual attack that can manage to tag Battler, then he's not getting past Endless 9. Hell, I still don't see how he's going to handle Golden Key. If he can dodge it, block it, stop it, make it miss, slow it down, or clash with it, then what's he going to do? Throw an energy blast at it?

No he is above Battler because he beats concepts above what Umnieko has displayed knowledge of. How is Beyonder affected by concepts? The only concepts that even got his notice were being beyond mandkind's concepts. And even then a fraction of his power was able to dwarf Marvel U. Beyonder had no trouble bringing Death back, but since death was a person there needed to be someone else to become death, Beyonder gave the choice to his friend dave. He killed death with power alone, and death in that universe is personified. It has a mind of it's own.

I won't, Beyonder was above HOTU, it can do anything the user wants. GER negates anything even a person's will but only on a universal level. Beyonder went beyond reality and battles beings that exist beyond it. How can Endless 9 negate something that is out of the scope of power of anything it has displayed to negate.

Concepts can bypass it, yes, LT is a concept that exist everywhere in the infinite multiverse, Beyonder not only can insitl fear into LT without even being touching him, (Like Battler instilled pain into Bernkastel) but also beat someone who easily bested LT (MM)  And basically it's not NLF because.. you say so? Beyonder has bypassed ocnepts on sheer power alone, just because it works diffrently on one universe does not mean it's universal for others. He dealt with concepts differently because he is beyond them, that is what it is to be Beyonder.

Golden Key is no different that what Beyonder has dealt with fighting people who control space, time, reality ect. yet he does it anyway. Meaning you can't outrun or dodge them. Golden key is not fatal either, you can't outrun LT or stop him, yet Beyonder does it because that is what he wants. LT gives power to something infinite, yet Beyond is beyond his power. He does not need to stop Golden Key, it can't kill him, it went to a realm beyond death, beyond the multivers without his powers and came back, he was out of reality, non existent. Endless 9 is not negating anything Beyonder throws out until you show me it dealing with something of Beyonder's level. Otherwise it is NLF. Even so Beyonder has dealt with infinite power, he dealt with eternity. ect. he is Beyond everything, including concepts.

The argument you are using now is the same kind that can be applied to JJBA debates: "Character a, depsite having incredible detection and sensing abilities can't see Star Platinum because Stands can ONLY be seen by other Stand users as said in the manga and never proven otherwise. Or Medaka and her ability to have every power in fiction. It's still NLF.
AND AGAIN:

Those forces include LT, Eternity,  ect.

Like I said our views on concepts and things int hat regard are pretty different, I just don't understand why you would think E9 would work no a being who exist beyond a realm that is beyond a realm full of concepts inconceivable by humans. You are just gonna say every other feat is unusable. So I dunno what else to say. I mean Battler himself could not even bring back everyone who died and needed his sister to do it, Beyonder killed death and brought her back on his own. That alone puts him above battler. Concepttual (utilizing a concept such as death or pain) attacks on a multiversal scale could do the trick, Beyonder killed death on power alone.
I mean even other fellow huge fans of the series agree MMa nd Beyonder easily win, look at the post fromt he guy names Battler:
http://mlpforums.com/topic/124499-who-can-beat-battler-ushiromiya/page-2

Kurohige wrote:No he is above Battler because he beats concepts above what Umnieko has displayed knowledge of. How is Beyonder affected by concepts? The only concepts that even got his notice were being beyond mandkind's concepts. And even then a fraction of his power was able to dwarf Marvel U. Beyonder had no trouble bringing Death back, but since death was a person there needed to be someone else to become death, Beyonder gave the choice to his friend dave. He killed death with power alone, and death in that universe is personified. It has a mind of it's own.

I won't, Beyonder was above HOTU, it can do anything the user wants. GER negates anything even a person's will but only on a universal level. Beyonder went beyond reality and battles beings that exist beyond it. How can Endless 9 negate something that is out of the scope of power of anything it has displayed to negate.

Concepts can bypass it, yes, LT is a concept that exist everywhere in the infinite multiverse, Beyonder not only can insitl fear into LT without even being touching him, (Like Battler instilled pain into Bernkastel) but also beat someone who easily bested LT (MM)  And basically it's not NLF because.. you say so? Beyonder has bypassed ocnepts on sheer power alone, just because it works diffrently on one universe does not mean it's universal for others. He dealt with concepts differently because he is beyond them, that is what it is to be Beyonder.

Golden Key is no different that what Beyonder has dealt with fighting people who control space, time, reality ect. yet he does it anyway. Meaning you can't outrun or dodge them. Golden key is not fatal either, you can't outrun LT or stop him, yet Beyonder does it because that is what he wants. LT gives power to something infinite, yet Beyond is beyond his power. He does not need to stop Golden Key, it can't kill him, it went to a realm beyond death, beyond the multivers without his powers and came back, he was out of reality, non existent. Endless 9 is not negating anything Beyonder throws out until you show me it dealing with something of Beyonder's level. Otherwise it is NLF. Even so Beyonder has dealt with infinite power, he dealt with eternity. ect. he is Beyond everything, including concepts.

The argument you are using now is the same kind that can be applied to JJBA debates: "Character a, depsite having incredible detection and sensing abilities can't see Star Platinum because Stands can ONLY be seen by other Stand users as said in the manga and never proven otherwise. Or Medaka and her ability to have every power in fiction. It's still NLF.
AND AGAIN:

Those forces include LT, Eternity,  ect.

Like I said our views on concepts and things int hat regard are pretty different, I just don't understand why you would think E9 would work no a being who exist beyond a realm that is beyond a realm full of concepts inconceivable by humans. You are just gonna say every other feat is unusable. So I dunno what else to say.

Do you not get what "endless" or "infinite" means? Because you seem to have forgotten that Battler's magic is infinite. Endless 9 can negate any fictional attack on any scale, because its scale is infinite. I really don't know any other way to tell you that without sounding offensive, and I refuse to do that.

Also, Golden Key can definetly damage him. He's shown no defense against direct conceptual attacks, and Battler has enough DC output to do the job, otheriwise. And BTW, Battler can exist in a place beyond the multiverse, as well. In Umineko, there is a place where the verses god tier, Featherine, resides. It looks like an infinetly large library, filled with countless books. Every book in that library is a universe, and the library contains countless books. The library exists outside of every single one of those universes, and is where each of them were conceived. If its where the creation of universes started in the first place, contains infinite universes, and houses a character who can rape even Battler, then its gotta be infinite and had to exist before time and space, if its truly where creation began.

My point is, you don't seem to realize the extent of Battler's powers. He is at bare minimum above LT, and even MM.

Kurohige wrote:Yeah, I think I'm wasting my time, you just said LT was not a conceptual entity, flat out denying what he was created for and by. Just because you say so? That is such a one-sided argument. That's like me saying Bernkastel isn't strong because she was harmed by a punch. You can't just change a character's origin and being because it doe snot fit your description, this is literally the most ridiculous and one-sided argument I have had to endure in a long time. HOTU is second ONLY to TOAA, as in everything. Marvel is not that powerful of a verse? Okay, keep lowballing. The only being above LT are Beyonder, and HOTU Thanos, which Bernkastel and Lambdadelta are not since they would have to be equal to TOAA which they are not since that is something that can't happen.

So, Beyonder can destroy conceptual beings beyond what anyone in Umnieko can even understand...but he can't get past a conceptual based attack like E9 and Gold Key? He already proved he can harm and kill greater concepts. You are just nitpicking the method, just because Battler must do it a certain way doesn't mean Beyonder has to.

You are just taking away concepts from Marvel to help your argument, that's not fair, it's bad debating.

Your argument boils down to: Beyonder destroyed and is stronger than concepts beyond anything in Umnieko, but can't destroy lower conceptual defenses because he does it a different way than in Umnieko. Umnieko is not some unbeatable unparalleled verse. Beyonder has done more than enough to get past Endless 9 or Golden Key, but yeah go ahead and deny it based off bias viewings. Maybe Beyonder's power is so great it can destroy concepts? It doesn't have to be one way, not everything needs to work the same way it does in one Universe. I was even willing to let the whole argument that Magic in Umnieko should apply to Marvel despite obvious differences but not if you continuously lowball another series just to prove your point. Marvel is not a weak verse by any regard considering TOAA would tie with the most powerful character in Demonbane and likely beat Unmieko is Battler is not the strongest. But like I said youa re never gonna change your mind regardless, but if that's the case just say so, don't lowball other verses.

Just because they are second only to an omnipotent being in THEIR verse, doesn't mean they automatically beat every non omnipotent being in other verses. By that logic, Dark Schneider is second only to the omnipotent God of Bastard!! in Adam of Darkness form, so does that mean only omnipotent beings can beat him?
LT is just a living being. I have never seen him perform conceptual attacks. All he does is fire generic blasts. Beyonder never destroyed stronger concepts. He destroyed the embodiment of death, but that's only because Death in Marvel is extremely weak. Even Sam and Dean Winchester bound the embodiment of death to their whims, does that mean Sam and Dean can solo Umineko?


I'm not lowballing Marvel, but Marvel is overhyped to be the strongest verse in fiction but that is far from the truth.

- Umineko
- Kami Sama
- Tenchi Muyo
- Demonbane
- Lovecraft mythos
- Dark Tower
- Shin Megami Tensei
- Xenogears

Are the verses off of the top of my head that are stronger than Marvel.

Beyonder destroyed the embodiment of death. That's hardly a conceptual feat as Death is more like a real person rather than a concept. Beyonder beat LT. LT is just the judge of the multiverse. There's nothing conceptual about beating him either, as he can be beaten by regular energy blasts. Beyonder is stated to be beyond all concepts known to mankind. A lot of fictional characters are stated to be beyond mankind's comprehension. There's a reason we strictly focus on feats in a battle forum.

Chef_Banchou wrote:Do you not get what "endless" or "infinite" means? Because you seem to have forgotten that Battler's magic is infinite. Endless 9 can negate any fictional attack on any scale, because its scale is infinite. I really don't know any other way to tell you that without sounding offensive, and I refuse to do that.

Also, Golden Key can definetly damage him. He's shown no defense against direct conceptual attacks, and Battler has enough DC output to do the job, otheriwise. And BTW, Battler can exist in a place beyond the multiverse, as well. In Umineko, there is a place where the verses god tier, Featherine, resides. It looks like an infinetly large library, filled with countless books. Every book in that library is a universe, and the library contains countless books. The library exists outside of every single one of those universes, and is where each of them were conceived. If its where the creation of universes started in the first place, contains infinite universes, and houses a character who can rape even Battler, then its gotta be infinite and had to exist before time and space, if its truly where creation began.

My point is, you don't seem to realize the extent of Battler's powers. He is at bare minimum above LT, and even MM.

dhalsim wrote:Just because they are second only to an omnipotent being in THEIR verse, doesn't mean they automatically beat every non omnipotent being in other verses. By that logic, Dark Schneider is second only to the omnipotent God of Bastard!! in Adam of Darkness form, so does that mean only omnipotent beings can beat him?
LT is just a living being. I have never seen him perform conceptual attacks. All he does is fire generic blasts. Beyonder never destroyed stronger concepts. He destroyed the embodiment of death, but that's only because Death in Marvel is extremely weak. Even Sam and Dean Winchester bound the embodiment of death to their whims, does that mean Sam and Dean can solo Umineko?


I'm not lowballing Marvel, but Marvel is overhyped to be the strongest verse in fiction but that is far from the truth.

- Umineko
- Kami Sama
- Tenchi Muyo
- Demonbane
- Lovecraft mythos
- Dark Tower
- Shin Megami Tensei
- Xenogears

Are the verses off of the top of my head that are stronger than Marvel.

Beyonder destroyed the embodiment of death. That's hardly a conceptual feat as Death is more like a real person rather than a concept. Beyonder beat LT. LT is just the judge of the multiverse. There's nothing conceptual about beating him either, as he can be beaten by regular energy blasts. Beyonder is stated to be beyond all concepts known to mankind. A lot of fictional characters are stated to be beyond mankind's comprehension. There's a reason we strictly focus on feats in a battle forum.

It's frustrating, really frustrating, but I simply can't win here, no matter what I say, no matter what I show, no matter the author's intent, no matter if the author of Umineko himself cmae and said you were wrong, even if I gave you a lsit of the definations and their uses in Marvel, no matter what, you will retain your opinions, at this point i can show Beyonder strangling Stan Lee, or completely destroying reality x infinity x infinity then going into DC and doing the same thing, it still wont be enough, not even close, then you will go on to say how Battler is the weakest in his series and there are 10 character whom he bows to, and his verse is int he bottom 10 strongest verses, yeah sounds about right.. Yeah endless 9 is infinite, so is Beyonder, in fact he beat being with limitless power, beings who could destroy the infinite multiverse, but alas, unless Beyonder is an Umineko character he will still lose forever and always because Marvel is weak because it's not Umineko and nobody will acknowledge any feat that says otherwise. Despite other dedicated fans, scans, and ect stating the contrary. Umineko is clearly a verse without equal, even if they have feats that mirror Marvel, they win. Welp, that's my last post here, I mean i completely disagree and have more arguments but as I said before is is 100% pointless. Clearly I have made a mistake in not following Umineko as the strongest verse, I shall look for avatars to replace mine now, the only logical thing to do.

Kurohige wrote:
It's frustrating, really frustrating, but I simply can't win here, no matter what I say, no matter what I show, no matter the author's intent, no matter if the author of Umineko himself cmae and said you were wrong, even if I gave you a lsit of the definations and their uses in Marvel, no matter what, you will retain your opinions, at this point i can show Beyonder strangling Stan Lee, or completely destroying reality x infinity x infinity then going into DC and doing the same thing, it still wont be enough, not even close, then you will go on to say how Battler is the weakest in his series and there are 10 character whom he bows to, and his verse is int he bottom 10 strongest verses, yeah sounds about right.. Yeah endless 9 is infinite, so is Beyonder, in fact he beat being with limitless power, beings who could destroy the infinite multiverse, but alas, unless Beyonder is an Umineko character he will still lose forever and always because Marvel is weak because it's not Umineko and nobody will acknowledge any feat that says otherwise. Despite other dedicated fans, scans, and ect stating the contrary. Umineko is clearly a verse without equal, even if they have feats that mirror Marvel, they win. Welp, that's my last post here, I mean i completely disagree and have more arguments but as I said before is is 100% pointless. Clearly I have made a mistake in not following Umineko as the strongest verse, I shall look for avatars to replace mine now, the only logical thing to do.

"at this point i can show Beyonder strangling Stan Lee, or completely destroying reality x infinity x infinity then going into DC and doing the same thing, it still wont be enough, not even close, then you will go on to say how Battler is the weakest in his series and there are 10 character whom he bows to, and his verse is int he bottom 10 strongest verses, yeah sounds about right."
Yeah you're right. It still won't be enough. Beyonder strangling Stan Lee is just a fourth wall feat that isn't applicable in battle forums. Beyonder destroying reality Infinity * Infinity * Infinity over is just high level DC. We've explained this already. Battler Ushiromiya can't be surpassed with DC alone. Conceptual hax is needed to beat him. No matter how many times you destroy reality, you can't bypass Battler's conceptual defense. Umineko is far from the strongest verse and we're not claiming that at all. It's just stronger than Marvel.
Marvel is extremely weak compared to the amount of wank it gets. They tried making up terms like megaverse and omniverse to try to make their verse sound stronger, when the cosmology stopped getting bigger at multiverse. All the characters do is have high DC and lack high level conceptual attacks and upper dimensional shenanigans to hang on with other fictions.
I'm not trying to start a flame war. I'm just debating.

Yup,t hey are weak, and like i said no matter what they do or show, they are not Umineko so they simply cannot win, Beyonder can destroy any concept any way he chooses but becaus ehe did it differently than characters in Umineko he still loses, he should simply convert. I mean I don't think Spiderman is even a bullet timer looking back on it, you can easily dissect the feat and it wasn't an actual bullet like the ones dodged or reacted in Jojo.

Kurohige wrote:

Chef_Banchou wrote:Do you not get what "endless" or "infinite" means? Because you seem to have forgotten that Battler's magic is infinite. Endless 9 can negate any fictional attack on any scale, because its scale is infinite. I really don't know any other way to tell you that without sounding offensive, and I refuse to do that.

Also, Golden Key can definetly damage him. He's shown no defense against direct conceptual attacks, and Battler has enough DC output to do the job, otheriwise. And BTW, Battler can exist in a place beyond the multiverse, as well. In Umineko, there is a place where the verses god tier, Featherine, resides. It looks like an infinetly large library, filled with countless books. Every book in that library is a universe, and the library contains countless books. The library exists outside of every single one of those universes, and is where each of them were conceived. If its where the creation of universes started in the first place, contains infinite universes, and houses a character who can rape even Battler, then its gotta be infinite and had to exist before time and space, if its truly where creation began.

My point is, you don't seem to realize the extent of Battler's powers. He is at bare minimum above LT, and even MM.

dhalsim wrote:Just because they are second only to an omnipotent being in THEIR verse, doesn't mean they automatically beat every non omnipotent being in other verses. By that logic, Dark Schneider is second only to the omnipotent God of Bastard!! in Adam of Darkness form, so does that mean only omnipotent beings can beat him?
LT is just a living being. I have never seen him perform conceptual attacks. All he does is fire generic blasts. Beyonder never destroyed stronger concepts. He destroyed the embodiment of death, but that's only because Death in Marvel is extremely weak. Even Sam and Dean Winchester bound the embodiment of death to their whims, does that mean Sam and Dean can solo Umineko?


I'm not lowballing Marvel, but Marvel is overhyped to be the strongest verse in fiction but that is far from the truth.

- Umineko
- Kami Sama
- Tenchi Muyo
- Demonbane
- Lovecraft mythos
- Dark Tower
- Shin Megami Tensei
- Xenogears

Are the verses off of the top of my head that are stronger than Marvel.

Beyonder destroyed the embodiment of death. That's hardly a conceptual feat as Death is more like a real person rather than a concept. Beyonder beat LT. LT is just the judge of the multiverse. There's nothing conceptual about beating him either, as he can be beaten by regular energy blasts. Beyonder is stated to be beyond all concepts known to mankind. A lot of fictional characters are stated to be beyond mankind's comprehension. There's a reason we strictly focus on feats in a battle forum.

It's frustrating, really frustrating, but I simply can't win here, no matter what I say, no matter what I show, no matter the author's intent, no matter if the author of Umineko himself cmae and said you were wrong, even if I gave you a lsit of the definations and their uses in Marvel, no matter what, you will retain your opinions, at this point i can show Beyonder strangling Stan Lee, or completely destroying reality x infinity x infinity then going into DC and doing the same thing, it still wont be enough, not even close, then you will go on to say how Battler is the weakest in his series and there are 10 character whom he bows to, and his verse is int he bottom 10 strongest verses, yeah sounds about right.. Yeah endless 9 is infinite, so is Beyonder, in fact he beat being with limitless power, beings who could destroy the infinite multiverse, but alas, unless Beyonder is an Umineko character he will still lose forever and always because Marvel is weak because it's not Umineko and nobody will acknowledge any feat that says otherwise. Despite other dedicated fans, scans, and ect stating the contrary. Umineko is clearly a verse without equal, even if they have feats that mirror Marvel, they win. Welp, that's my last post here, I mean i completely disagree and have more arguments but as I said before is is 100% pointless. Clearly I have made a mistake in not following Umineko as the strongest verse, I shall look for avatars to replace mine now, the only logical thing to do.

I never ignored any of his feats. All I've bedn doing is explaining Battler's capabilities as best as I can. You just seem to ignore what I say and insist that Beyonder is above Battler.

Oh, and if you don't drop the sarcasm, your gonna get a warning. I never said that Umineko was above Marvel. And you mocking our efforts to defend Battler with a sarcastic forfeit doesn't do anything but piss people off, and insult our intelligence.